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  • #46
    I guess, GDRV-Megan doesn't know, I will call Jay at GD.....pretty sure I know how to solve my dilemma. Thanks for your input guys!

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    • #47
      Originally posted by Krohsis View Post
      I guess, GDRV-Megan doesn't know, I will call Jay at GD.....pretty sure I know how to solve my dilemma. Thanks for your input guys!
      To be fair to Megan, it is Saturday (initial question was posted late Friday) and GD is experiencing quite a bit of turmoil right now with the virus situation. It may take her a bit, but she will get you an answer.
      Forum moderators are not GD employees--we are volunteers and owners presumably just like yourself. Unless specifically mentioned otherwise, we have nothing to gain should you choose to purchase a product or engage a service we discuss on this forum.

      2017 Ford F-350 DRW, '19 315RLTSPlus

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      • #48
        Good call, Howard....been pretty busy lately, lost track of time.
        Last edited by Krohsis; 03-29-2020, 07:56 AM.

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        • #49
          Originally posted by GDRV-Megan View Post

          The layers of floor for our travel trailers are:

          #1 - Darco (moisture barrier and rodent deterrent)
          #2 - Hand sorted lauan
          #3 - Tubular aluminum floor joist
          #4 - TWO layers of hand sorted lauan with staggered seams (adding more strength)

          Click image for larger version

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          All of our Reflection travel trailers, 150 Series, 29RS, 28BH, 31MB all have laminated floors.


          Everything larger will have the alum stud floors with the 5/8" 1 piece of big board.

          The layers of floor for our fifth wheels are:

          #1 - Darco
          #2 - 2x3 aluminum studs (used for support and stuffed with wood for screw retention)
          #3 - "Big Board" Marine Grade 1 piece decking that is fastened to the aluminum floor frame

          Click image for larger version

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          (Sorry this picture doesn't have the numbers labeled like the above one does)

          Also GDRV-Megan in your description above you mention wood in the aluminum tubing for the Fifth wheels, but not the travel trailers. Yet the picture shows wood in the tubing for the travel trailers. Is there wood in the travel trailer tubing? And if so, as the picture shows, what is the wood. Is it natural wood, or is a particle board type of substance, or something altogether different? Thanks, John

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          • #50
            So here is a narrative from another GD page where he shares the problem is not just with GD but with other manufacturers as well. Seems my concerns are not unfounded. The fix is the challenge at this point. I certainly don't like the author's short term solution.

            "The product is called Darco. It has been used for many years as a protective layer against moisture intruding the subfloor structure. There are several threads in groups on the internet that you may find interesting, several I actively participate in that go into detail about this fabric and its protection qualities or lack thereof.

            In 2018, we purchased a Keystone Bullet Premier 30RIPR a similar floor plan to the Grand Design 297RSTS. Within the first month, we noticed what appeared to be an area about the size of your first behind the island in the middle of the room. This particular location didn't lend to being caused by water, it wasn't near plumbing or the outside. Over the next few months it got larger, in my opinion due to the weight of the slide when pulled in and it bouncing on this area as we traveled.

            So we bought in April, by October it was in the shop for a recall. We had them look at the floor and by then the tech indicated the problem was basically from one side to the other and extended back towards the rear, about 32 square feet. It eventually was taken back to Indiana in January 2019.

            They contacted Keystone who immediately offered to pay them 1 hours worth of time to document it with pictures; our dealer said this is NEVER done so they knew something was up.

            Our dealer diagnosed this as water spray coming from the tires somehow seeping through the Darco and then destroying the subfloor. The floor as you know is a sandwich of wood, aluminum and foam with the Darco covering the bottom, the edges and extending over the top of the floor. The linoleum then is on top and wraps around the edges making this a waterproof system. The only problem is, if water does some how find it's way in, it has no way out.

            The threads I referenced, other dealers suggested that small rocks/gravel could be thrown into the Darco material and then water spray would enter in these pock marks. I didn't buy this theory on mine due to the location of the damage. My dealer diagnosed it as water getting thrown into a bolt the secured the wall to the frame that was not sealed correctly.

            I discovered another owner of the same camper who had the same problem EXCEPT his was in front of the island, no where near where water could intrude from tires. Longer story short, Keystone now has a manufacturing facility dedicated to repairing/replacing this floor system to a tune of about 4 employees working 4-6 weeks tearing the entire unit apart, lifting the walls off, replacing the floor and rebuilding it; last i read there were 300 units awaiting this process. Keystone has now come out with a new flooring system to combat this issue as their floor was a lot like layered cardboard as opposed to a wooden luan - not to say that the luan would fair better.

            For us, Keystone purchased our unit back from us, others worked other deals.

            The first thing I did with my new Grand Design was inspect that area. I did see what I felt was a potential problem in the Darco material in the tire area. I used some black Gorilla tape to secure that area and will revisit this at some time. One of the threads goes into detail on how a guy did his; there are several different ideas.

            A sheet of aluminum in that area, screwed in, using butyl tape, lap sealant and eternabond tape may be a start. It of course would then be another area to check during the maintenance checks and you would also want to be wary of trapping any moisture in there."

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            • #51
              Originally posted by Krohsis View Post
              Thanks so much GDRV-Megan ! That was a direct answer to my question about the floor composition of the 315RLTS.

              So, GDRV-Megan, given the problem I have with road spray damaging the Darco, and it is even failing in a couple small spots. What's the fix in GD's opinion? I was pretty set with screwing some sort of sheet metal there. But after seeing the composition of the floor I will be screwing into, I'm not so sure that is a good fix, particularly it seems I would be screwing into a thin piece of lauan at the inboard side of the area. Suggestions requested.
              I would agree with your plan to add the metal wheel well. Can you private message me your VIN and contact information? I'll have someone from our customer service team reach out to you.

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              • #52
                Originally posted by Krohsis View Post
                GDRV-Megan can you tell me the "wall thickness" of the aluminum square tubing for the flooring in the 315RLTS? #3 in your above photo. Thanks!
                The wall thickness is 1.5".

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                • #53
                  Originally posted by Krohsis View Post

                  Also GDRV-Megan in your description above you mention wood in the aluminum tubing for the Fifth wheels, but not the travel trailers. Yet the picture shows wood in the tubing for the travel trailers. Is there wood in the travel trailer tubing? And if so, as the picture shows, what is the wood. Is it natural wood, or is a particle board type of substance, or something altogether different? Thanks, John
                  We use hardwood to stuff the tubes. The tube in the picture shown goes across the front, with other interior walls getting set and secured. That's why that tube is not stuffed.

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                  • #54
                    Originally posted by GDRV-Megan View Post

                    The wall thickness is 1.5".
                    Hi Megan,

                    The tube outside dimension would be 1.5” (square?) but the wall thickness of the square tube would be something like 1/16”. I think that is the question.

                    Rob
                    Cate & Rob
                    (with Border Collies Molly & Angel + Kitties Hazel & Elsie)
                    2015 Reflection 303RLS
                    2022 F350 Diesel CC SB SRW Lariat
                    Bayham, Ontario, Canada

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                    • #55
                      Not to beat a dead horse, but here are pics of another GD owner that discovered his Darco failed while traveling in heavy rain on the East Coast. It didn't take long for the Darco to fail and as you can see it wasn't discovered until after their long trip. It was already showing signs of being a real problem.

                      Fortunately, GDRV-Megan took care of me and got me in touch with a tech and I will be getting the problem fixed.
                      Attached Files

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                      • #56
                        Originally posted by Krohsis View Post
                        Not to beat a dead horse, but here are pics of another GD owner that discovered his Darco failed while traveling in heavy rain on the East Coast. It didn't take long for the Darco to fail and as you can see it wasn't discovered until after their long trip. It was already showing signs of being a real problem.

                        Fortunately, GDRV-Megan took care of me and got me in touch with a tech and I will be getting the problem fixed.
                        Just wondering . . . which Grand Design product has OSB directly above the Darco membrane . . . as shown in your picture?

                        Rob
                        Cate & Rob
                        (with Border Collies Molly & Angel + Kitties Hazel & Elsie)
                        2015 Reflection 303RLS
                        2022 F350 Diesel CC SB SRW Lariat
                        Bayham, Ontario, Canada

                        Comment


                        • #57
                          Originally posted by Cate&Rob View Post

                          Just wondering . . . which Grand Design product has OSB directly above the Darco membrane . . . as shown in your picture?

                          Rob
                          Not sure of models, the one in the pic was a fiver though. Easier fix if it is osb.

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                          • #58
                            Originally posted by Krohsis View Post

                            Not sure of models, the one in the pic was a fiver though. Easier fix if it is osb.
                            I am not aware of any Grand Design 5th wheels that have OSB on the underside of the floor structure. Maybe TTs like Transcend?

                            Rob
                            Cate & Rob
                            (with Border Collies Molly & Angel + Kitties Hazel & Elsie)
                            2015 Reflection 303RLS
                            2022 F350 Diesel CC SB SRW Lariat
                            Bayham, Ontario, Canada

                            Comment


                            • #59
                              Originally posted by Cate&Rob View Post

                              I am not aware of any Grand Design 5th wheels that have OSB on the underside of the floor structure. Maybe TTs like Transcend?

                              Rob
                              So, I went back and checked on which specific coach this is and it is a Momentum.

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