Side Windows - Laminate vs. Double Glazed(Insulated)

[humunuku]

Hello Everyone,

We are new to The Grand Design family and especially new to this forum. So, please forgive me if this is an obvious question or if it has been dealt with in an alternate Forum.
In fact we are almost family members, but not quite yet. We have been narrowing the search for our new RV home. We are focused on Imagine(2670MK) or Reflection(297RSTS).

My questions revolve around Side Window upgrades. I have recently learned that there are two alternative types of windows. Laminated, which have two panes separated by a thin layer of resin or plastic void of any gas or air. My understanding is that this type of window is great for noise abatement and strength but does not do much for temperature insulation. The other window design is typical of what you might find in residential homes. It has two panes that are seperated by an inert gas which is very dry (Nitrogen/Argon). This design is very good for insulation but requires a good seal. There is a triple pane option, but not relevant for this discussion.

As far as I can tell, around 2016 several RV manufacturers were installing the Double Glazed(with inert gas). But experience has shown that the seals on these windows were susceptable to road vibration and subsequently the seals would fail and allow moisture and debris between the panes. The windows would become fogged/crazed and impossible to clean. They can be diassembled and reassembled and resealed if done properly.

The Laminate do not have a seal and therefore are not susceptable to road vibration or seal failures.

My questions are these:

1. When purchasing the window upgrades for double-pane for either Imagine or Reflection, will the widows be Laminated or Double Glazed?
2. What year did this window upgrade begin to be offered and did GD make a switch along the way?

ps. I have received conflicting information from my GD sales rep and current owners (Ambassadors).

Thank you for your indulgence and look forward to the discussion,

Regards,
Al & Ann Ely (Class C Couple)

[howson]

humunuku -- please take a moment to read the Welcome Letter to New Members https://gdrvowners.com/forum/main-fo...to-new-members I hope you find it is time well spent to orient you to the forum and how to make the most of your time here.

I'm going to tag our hosts to address your question on the window options currently being used in production of the Imagine and Reflection lines.

The Reflection rep is GDRV-Mariah
The Imagine rep is

A personal observation about windows--while adding some form of insulation factor to the glass helps, the aluminum frames of RV windows are very good (in a bad way!) at transmitting the outside temperatures (whether hot or cold) into the coach. I realized this to my chagrin after adding (expensive) window tinting to my 315RLTS' windows.

Another consideration easy to overlook (as you're transitioning from a Class C) is the extra weight of double-pane windows. You'll be surprised how easy it is to reach a travel trailer's maximum gross vehicle weight rating. Consuming some of the cargo-carrying capacity of your trailer with heavier windows should be considered thoughtfully. (If mostly parked in one spot the extra weight is really not a consideration. If constantly on the road with lots of "stuff" it is something to consider.)

Howard

[humunuku]

Howard, Thank you for your observations and and cautions. We will consider this in our decision.
Also, thank you in relocating this post to the proper channel.

[howson]

Also, thank you in relocating this post to the proper channel.

You're welcome (but it was really TucsonJim )

Please come back and update the forum with what you decide to do and why. As an owners forum we help each by sharing our collective experiences.

[Second Chance]

I'm pretty sure dual pane windows are not an option on Imagine travel trailers (just checked the Build and Price page to confirm). As for the rest of the discussion, GD uses Lippert windows labeled as "insulated" (called "dual pane" on the Build and Price pages for those models where available). In our Solitude, these are Lippert 3000 Series windows, if I recall correctly. They are not residential-style windows, but do have what is a little over 1/8" gap between the two panes. We were full-time in a Reflection 337RLS without dual pane windows and are now in a Solitude 310GK-R with DPWs. There are noticeable differences with the DPWs: 1) the new rig is much quieter, 2) we have had zero issues with condensation, and 3) our propane use is measurably less at a given temperature. Yesterday the wind chill here at Aberdeen Proving Ground in Maryland was 13F and we stayed cozy.

Rob

[humunuku]

Rob, Thank you for the detailed information. It has opened the door to a rabbit hole, so here we go.....

Laminate and bonded windows are typically two panes of glass held together by an adhesive sheet or "glue". (*Not tempered glass)

There is no gap.
They are rated as safety glass.
Good at sound abatement
Good at Added UV protection
Modern automotive winshields are this style.
Lippert 3000 Series

Dual Pane Windows

Small air space between panes (1/8")
Filled with inert gas (Argon/Nitrogen) to eliminated moisture
Can be made with Tempered or Laminate panes
Good at temperature insulation and noise abatement (confirmation by Rob)
Similar to residential windows only if gas filled and sealed properly
Lippert 8600 Series
Lippert 8700 Series (Made with laminate safety glass)

ps. I am waiting for a response from Grand Design to confirm what series is standard for the build on Reflection
pss. I have not confirmed my findings with anyone at Lippert. The URL attached below is one of many resources.

* Tempered glass is heat-treat process. Utilizing quench cycles, the grain structures of the glass are altered to create a strong material but when broken will fracture in many small rounded pieces. This is typically found on side and rear windows in automobiles. It is a safety glass that allows for easy and safe egress should there be a need. Following several resources, I do not see where tempered glass is used for side windows on RV trailers.

[Second Chance]

Rob, Thank you for the detailed information. It has opened the door to a rabbit hole, so here we go.....

Laminate and bonded windows are typically two panes of glass held together by an adhesive sheet or "glue". (*Not tempered glass)

There is no gap.
They are rated as safety glass.
Good at sound abatement
Good at Added UV protection
Modern automotive winshields are this style.
Lippert 3000 Series

Dual Pane Windows

Small air space between panes (1/8")
Filled with inert gas (Argon/Nitrogen) to eliminated moisture
Can be made with Tempered or Laminate panes
Good at temperature insulation and noise abatement (confirmation by Rob)
Similar to residential windows only if gas filled and sealed properly
Lippert 8600 Series
Lippert 8700 Series (Made with laminate safety glass)

ps. I am waiting for a response from Grand Design to confirm what series is standard for the build on Reflection
pss. I have not confirmed my findings with anyone at Lippert. The URL attached below is one of many resources.

* Tempered glass is heat-treat process. Utilizing quench cycles, the grain structures of the glass are altered to create a strong material but when broken will fracture in many small rounded pieces. This is typically found on side and rear windows in automobiles. It is a safety glass that allows for easy and safe egress should there be a need. Following several resources, I do not see where tempered glass is used for side windows on RV trailers.

Forum hint: when replying to a particular person or entry, use the "Quote" button. The person to whom you are replying will get a notification.

Rob

[GDRV-Emily]

Hello Everyone,

We are new to The Grand Design family and especially new to this forum. So, please forgive me if this is an obvious question or if it has been dealt with in an alternate Forum.
In fact we are almost family members, but not quite yet. We have been narrowing the search for our new RV home. We are focused on Imagine(2670MK) or Reflection(297RSTS).

My questions revolve around Side Window upgrades. I have recently learned that there are two alternative types of windows. Laminated, which have two panes separated by a thin layer of resin or plastic void of any gas or air. My understanding is that this type of window is great for noise abatement and strength but does not do much for temperature insulation. The other window design is typical of what you might find in residential homes. It has two panes that are seperated by an inert gas which is very dry (Nitrogen/Argon). This design is very good for insulation but requires a good seal. There is a triple pane option, but not relevant for this discussion.

As far as I can tell, around 2016 several RV manufacturers were installing the Double Glazed(with inert gas). But experience has shown that the seals on these windows were susceptable to road vibration and subsequently the seals would fail and allow moisture and debris between the panes. The windows would become fogged/crazed and impossible to clean. They can be diassembled and reassembled and resealed if done properly.

The Laminate do not have a seal and therefore are not susceptable to road vibration or seal failures.

My questions are these:

1. When purchasing the window upgrades for double-pane for either Imagine or Reflection, will the widows be Laminated or Double Glazed?
2. What year did this window upgrade begin to be offered and did GD make a switch along the way?

ps. I have received conflicting information from my GD sales rep and current owners (Ambassadors).

Thank you for your indulgence and look forward to the discussion,

Regards,
Al & Ann Ely (Class C Couple)

Hello humunuku! Imagine does not have window upgrades. Reflection (TT, 150 series, and standard) have the window upgrade option and this began to be offered on the 2016 models. The windows are not laminated. The windows are dual pane, meaning there are 2 pieces of tempered glass, with NO gas between them that aid in better insulation.
Hope this information helps.

GDRV-Mariah

[Second Chance]

Hello humunuku! Imagine does not have window upgrades. Reflection (TT, 150 series, and standard) have the window upgrade option and this began to be offered on the 2016 models. The windows are not laminated. The windows are dual pane, meaning there are 2 pieces of tempered glass, with NO gas between them that aid in better insulation.
Hope this information helps.

GDRV-Mariah

Brittany,

Can you clarify whether or not there is a space between the two panes of glass and, if so, what is that space? On the DPWs in our Solitude, it looks to be a bit over 1/8", but hard to tell.

Thanks

Rob

[GDRV-Emily]

Brittany,

Can you clarify whether or not there is a space between the two panes of glass and, if so, what is that space? On the DPWs in our Solitude, it looks to be a bit over 1/8", but hard to tell.

Thanks

Rob

Rob, we would recommend reaching out to Lippert for the manufacturing details of the window. They will be able to provide that information. Here is their contact information: customerservice@lci1.com
or 432-547-7378. Thank you!

[Second Chance]

Rob, we would recommend reaching out to Lippert for the manufacturing details of the window. They will be able to provide that information. Here is their contact information: customerservice@lci1.com
or 432-547-7378. Thank you!

OK... just got off the phone with Lippert. FYI for everyone: the Lippert windows advertised (by GD and Lippert) as "dual pane" are truly dual pane - not laminated. There are two sheets of glass with a gasket holding them apart (I can see it on my windows but I'm unable to make an accurate measurement - looks to be a little over 3/6"). It is just air in between the panes - not argon or another inert gas like residential thermal windows.

Thanks, Brittany, for your help.

Rob

[humunuku]

Second Chance

Rob, Thank you for following up with Lippert. The information that you gathhered is very helpful. Have you experienced any degradation from condensation or frit between the panes? Someone on another thread did a calculation for added weight. I think it was approximately 200 lbs for the entire rig. The $1,400 upgrade, low added weight in exchange for the improved thermal and sound barrier seems like a good idea. Discerning from your comments as well as others, I get the feeling you would make the same decision if the opportunity arises again. Thank you.

[Second Chance]

Second Chance

Rob, Thank you for following up with Lippert. The information that you gathhered is very helpful. Have you experienced any degradation from condensation or frit between the panes? Someone on another thread did a calculation for added weight. I think it was approximately 200 lbs for the entire rig. The $1,400 upgrade, low added weight in exchange for the improved thermal and sound barrier seems like a good idea. Discerning from your comments as well as others, I get the feeling you would make the same decision if the opportunity arises again. Thank you.

No - absolutely no issues with anything between the panes. When we were putting together our build order, I spoke with a Solitude line manager at GD who said that, on the Solitude 310GK, the DPWs added about 350 lbs. - but the Solitude 310GK has a LOT of glass area! I don't know how far back my threads go on this forum about windows, but we spent 4-1/2 years full-time in a Reflection 337RLS that did not have DPWs. We're not "sun chasers" and sometimes end up in places that are colder than we would choose to be near grandkids, etc. During that time we experienced low temps of 10 - 11F with 40 MPH winds for days at a time (with highs never getting above the low 20s). It was a PITA cutting Reflectix to fit in the windows, putting it up at night, pulling some of it out during the day, and dealing with the condensation that formed behind it anyway (not to mention that the cave feel drove Laura up the wall). With the DPWs, we don't have to deal with any of that - and we're burning less propane at a given temperature (the interior volumes of our Reflection and the Solitude are very similar). As I write this from Aberdeen Proving Ground, MD, it's 34F outside with winds 20 - 25 MPH and gusting. The thermostat is set on 68, but the electric fireplace and one portable ceramic heater are keeping the rig at 71F - the furnace hasn't cycled since we got up this morning and warmed the place up. We'll age out of full-time RVing before this one wears out but, yes, if we were to have to make the decision again, we would go with dual pane windows.

Rob

[howson]

Second Chance (Rob) -- as usual, a superbly informative post. Your testimony and first-hand experience has "sold" me on the DPWs.

[Second Chance]

Second Chance (Rob) -- as usual, a superbly informative post. Your testimony and first-hand experience has "sold" me on the DPWs.

Please don't make me responsible for spending your money, Howard...

Rob