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  • New 303RLS - Upgrades for Refrigerator

    Good Morning Grand Design Fellows,

    We are just picking up a new Reflection 303, we are trading in our 2015 303... as you can tell we love this unit. With the new one we are getting the basic solar package and the 15.6 cu ft 12v furrion fridge. I am wondering if anyone has real world consumption numbers for this fridge?

    Also we are curious if we are good with our planned solar/battery expansion. We are adding the following to the already installed solar package:
    1. 190W panel on the roof,
    2. 120W portable panel ,
    3. 2 GoPower Lithium 100aH batteries,
    4. GoPower 3000W inverter converter.
    We are not touching the furrion 50A solar charger at this time. Trying to size the solar we need and the fridge is the big player here and I am currently using 127-150 aH, which is massive and the proposed system will not be able to keep up when we are dry camping!!! Thoughts from the experienced people on this group would be appreciated.

    Thanks,
    Greg and Heather
    We live to serve our two Golder Retrievers
    2022 Reflection 303RLS
    2016 GMC Denali 3500

  • #2
    Hi Greg & Heather,

    Welcome to the Grand Design Owners Technical forum! I like your choice of trailer and your avatar picture!
    I am sure the solar experts will be along shortly to weigh in on your upgrade plan.

    Rob
    Cate & Rob
    (with Border Collies Molly & Angel + Kitties Hazel & Elsie)
    2015 Reflection 303RLS
    2022 F350 Diesel CC SB SRW Lariat
    Bayham, Ontario, Canada

    Comment


    • #3
      Originally posted by gtippett View Post
      Good Morning Grand Design Fellows,

      We are just picking up a new Reflection 303, we are trading in our 2015 303... as you can tell we love this unit. With the new one we are getting the basic solar package and the 15.6 cu ft 12v furrion fridge. I am wondering if anyone has real world consumption numbers for this fridge?

      Also we are curious if we are good with our planned solar/battery expansion. We are adding the following to the already installed solar package:
      1. 190W panel on the roof,
      2. 120W portable panel ,
      3. 2 GoPower Lithium 100aH batteries,
      4. GoPower 3000W inverter converter.
      We are not touching the furrion 50A solar charger at this time. Trying to size the solar we need and the fridge is the big player here and I am currently using 127-150 aH, which is massive and the proposed system will not be able to keep up when we are dry camping!!! Thoughts from the experienced people on this group would be appreciated.

      Thanks,
      Greg and Heather
      Wow...there's a lot here to discuss, Greg. What solar panel(s) is/are on your new 303RLS? (With all the substitutions due to the supply chain issues I'm not going to assume I know what it is.)

      Without knowing how much you know about all of this, before spending any money I strongly suggest investing $5 or so and get Will Prowse's Mobile Power Made Easy book from Amazon or another source. It will take you step-by-step through each component to ensure you understand the why behind the what.

      One thing quickly catches my attention: for a 3000W inverter your battery bank should be capable of sustaining 300A of 12vDC. Typically a 100aH lithium will sustain 100A...so minimum # of batteries is 3. If I was upgrading I'd look at getting two of Battle Born's 270aH "Game Changer" batteries. Almost can't have too much battery capacity and capability.

      There's also a lot of wiring required and other items between those batteries and the 3000W inverter.

      Are you looking to do this yourself or pay someone to do it? Either way it is imperative IMHO that you have an indepth knowledge on the topic. I've seen way too many horrid installs by "professionals" that (frankly) ripped off the customer.

      Howard
      Forum moderators are not GD employees--we are volunteers and owners presumably just like yourself. Unless specifically mentioned otherwise, we have nothing to gain should you choose to purchase a product or engage a service we discuss on this forum.

      2017 Ford F-350 DRW, '19 315RLTSPlus

      Comment


      • #4
        gtippett - Sometimes I get a little confused with nomenclature. Are you using 127-150 amps per hour? Or 127-150 amps per day? If the latter, a very rough approximation says you'd need about 500 watts of solar power to keep up with the demand.

        Welcome to the forum.

        Jim

        Jim and Ginnie
        2024 Solitude 310GK
        GDRV Technical Forum Moderator
        GDRV Rally Support Coordinator

        Comment


        • #5
          howson, we are only doing 200 Ah for now with plans to add more in the future. We are putting in a 3000W inverter as we know we will want to have that installed once we get more batteries... limited cash. I also wanted to try things out a little before we get more batteries to see how the fridge is doing. I have a good understanding on what we need without the fridge. As we can dry camp with our 2015 303 for a week on only a Trojan 98 aH AGM, a 120W portable panel and slight use of a generator (maybe once a day for an hour to run the ac unit). As per the solar panels, the unit comes with the 165W Furrion Panel and we are installing a GoPower 190 W panel (since the 165W is no where to be found). The portable panel is also a GoPower unit. As for knowledge, I know enough to do the calculations and the items needed. Not an expert but I understand what needs to be done. I would love to do the install myself, as it would be fun. But I just don't have the time. We are getting a GoPower Authorized Dealer to do the work. They have been doing this for a long time and I trust them. They are also the Grand Design Dealer and have been doing the service on our 2015 since we got it.

          TucsonJim, sorry that is per day. Based on the literature for the fridge in regular mode it uses about 1.8kWh/day (or 150 Ah per day) and in eco-mode it states 5.3Ah@77F... which I assume would equate to 127 Ah per day (if you assume that it runs 24 hours a day... which is over kill i think)
          We live to serve our two Golder Retrievers
          2022 Reflection 303RLS
          2016 GMC Denali 3500

          Comment


          • #6
            gtippett keep an eye on the power specs rated temperature. There was a recent post from someone whose rig came with a GE instead of a Furrion and they found that in warmer weather it consumed significantly more power. Something to be aware of.

            Howard is right about the current draw of the batteries. You'll want to try to have them limit the output of the inverter to keep from tripping a shutdown or BMS reset of you try to overdraw the batteries. Not sure how this would be done on that setup, I'm more familiar with Magnum and Victron.
            Forum moderators are not GD employees--we are volunteers and owners presumably just like yourself. Unless specifically mentioned otherwise, we have nothing to gain should you choose to purchase a product or engage a service we discuss on this forum.

            Neil Citro
            2018 Reflection 28BH Pepwave
            2019 F350 6.7L Long Bed Crew Cab

            Comment


            • #7
              Originally posted by gtippett View Post
              howson, we are only doing 200 Ah for now with plans to add more in the future.
              With a lithium (at least with Battle Born) they state a battery can be added within a year. (For lead-acid and AGM adding a battery after-the-fact is not recommended. The imbalance between the old and new is too great.)

              Originally posted by gtippett View Post
              I know enough to do the calculations and the items needed. Not an expert but I understand what needs to be done. ... As per the solar panels, the unit comes with the 165W Furrion Panel and we are installing a GoPower 190 W panel (since the 165W is no where to be found). The portable panel is also a GoPower unit.
              That's great that you know how to do the calculations! That's the toughest part.

              How are you planning on having these wired together? Is the solar controller sufficient for the voltage, amperage, and total wattage they will generate?

              Forum moderators are not GD employees--we are volunteers and owners presumably just like yourself. Unless specifically mentioned otherwise, we have nothing to gain should you choose to purchase a product or engage a service we discuss on this forum.

              2017 Ford F-350 DRW, '19 315RLTSPlus

              Comment


              • #8
                Originally posted by ncitro View Post
                gtippett keep an eye on the power specs rated temperature. There was a recent post from someone whose rig came with a GE instead of a Furrion and they found that in warmer weather it consumed significantly more power. Something to be aware of.
                ncitro got it, I went back to the literature.. as Furrion states their consumption at 25C... so that is another fun part of the calculations, thansk for sharing keep it coming.

                Originally posted by ncitro View Post
                gtippett Howard is right about the current draw of the batteries. You'll want to try to have them limit the output of the inverter to keep from tripping a shutdown or BMS reset of you try to overdraw the batteries. Not sure how this would be done on that setup, I'm more familiar with Magnum and Victron.
                ncitro based on a 200Ah, we could provide 2160 W AC based on a 90% efficency... so we were thinking about a 2000W Inverter... but then we were like... might as well get the 3000W so all we need to do is add more batteries. It is only two of us and we are very careful to what we are running as we have been use too generator power.
                Last edited by gtippett; 03-22-2022, 03:09 PM.
                We live to serve our two Golder Retrievers
                2022 Reflection 303RLS
                2016 GMC Denali 3500

                Comment


                • #9
                  Originally posted by howson View Post
                  With a lithium (at least with Battle Born) they state a battery can be added within a year. (For lead-acid and AGM adding a battery after-the-fact is not recommended. The imbalance between the old and new is too great.)
                  howson , didn't know that... keep the info coming.


                  Originally posted by howson View Post
                  How are you planning on having these wired together? Is the solar controller sufficient for the voltage, amperage, and total wattage they will generate?
                  howson, yes as a 12v 200 Ah battery. Well the controller is 50A and has a profile for Lithium, what else should I review and determine. And the profile matches the GoPower battery profile....
                  We live to serve our two Golder Retrievers
                  2022 Reflection 303RLS
                  2016 GMC Denali 3500

                  Comment


                  • #10
                    Hi Greg,

                    I agree with your choice to "oversize" the inverter. I used to have a boat where I ran a 2000W inverter at near capacity. I upgraded to a 3000W with the same loads and that inverter running at 2/3 capacity ran cooler and quieter. My other piece of advice is to oversize the wiring . . . even above whatever the manufacturer says you "can get away with". Starting a heavy load can momentarily draw down the voltage seen by the inverter because of resistance in the wiring. With lead/acid battteries (my only experience) this can cause the inverter to kick out earlier than necessary with partially discharged batteries. (may be less of a problem with lithium batteries)

                    Rob
                    Cate & Rob
                    (with Border Collies Molly & Angel + Kitties Hazel & Elsie)
                    2015 Reflection 303RLS
                    2022 F350 Diesel CC SB SRW Lariat
                    Bayham, Ontario, Canada

                    Comment


                    • #11
                      Originally posted by gtippett View Post
                      howson , didn't know that... keep the info coming..
                      Have you found TucsonJim 's Solar 101 presentation? There's a copy in the Rally Presentation folder and also in the Solar channel's Reference Material section.
                      Forum moderators are not GD employees--we are volunteers and owners presumably just like yourself. Unless specifically mentioned otherwise, we have nothing to gain should you choose to purchase a product or engage a service we discuss on this forum.

                      2017 Ford F-350 DRW, '19 315RLTSPlus

                      Comment


                      • #12
                        Originally posted by gtippett View Post

                        ncitro got it, I went back to the literature.. as Furrion states their consumption at 25C... so that is another fun part of the calculations, thansk for sharing keep it coming.



                        ncitro based on a 200Ah, we could provide 2160 W AC based on a 90% efficency... so we were thinking about a 2000W Inverter... but then we were like... might as well get the 3000W so all we need to do is add more batteries. It is only two of us and we are very careful to what we are running as we have been use too generator power.
                        Definitely recommend going with the upsized inverter (and upsizing the wiring as well I ran 4/0 and do not regret it), but you need to watch out for the maximum amps the batteries can send out. I am not familiar with those, but I know BattleBorn is rated at 100A each (as are my Lion Energy), so if you are not careful with the inverter they can trip the BMS, or trip an overload in the inverter in the batteries by drawing more than they can handle. Obviously you can manage that yourself by watching what you run, but I prefer a system that is "idiot proof" for when I have guests who run too many things. I think in Victron gear you can de-rate the Multiplus but not sure about this or the one you have specced. I know Victron recommends three Battleborns or more for the 3000VA inverter for this reason.
                        Forum moderators are not GD employees--we are volunteers and owners presumably just like yourself. Unless specifically mentioned otherwise, we have nothing to gain should you choose to purchase a product or engage a service we discuss on this forum.

                        Neil Citro
                        2018 Reflection 28BH Pepwave
                        2019 F350 6.7L Long Bed Crew Cab

                        Comment


                        • #13
                          Thanks Everyone for your responses. I have reached out to Furrion and they couldn't provide any better information than what I stated above. So the 5.3Ah@25C is what I have to use for system design. I feel it will be under that since for the most part our average temperature where we camp is no where near 25C. At full power (not off grid mode), it runs about 6.3 Ah (average), which is calculated from the annual power consumption and is not tied to a temperature. If I had one more data point I can interpolate... Anyway, I will have to go with the system proposed above and just test it out for the first few trips. To help with testing, I am adding a Go Power Battery Monitor to the system so I can watch the Battery AH remaining and used (as the Furrion monitor only shows voltage).

                          If anyone hears about real world Ah data on the Furrion15.6 cu ft 12V Fridge (which is the fridge coming in the 2022 Reflections), please let me know.
                          We live to serve our two Golder Retrievers
                          2022 Reflection 303RLS
                          2016 GMC Denali 3500

                          Comment


                          • #14
                            gtippett -- the Furrion website claims the refrigerator will consume 1.8kW per day. Doing the math that comes out to 1.5 batteries per day (using the figures 12v * 100aH rating = 1200wH).

                            If the 5.3 amps per hour that you're using is accurate, that's 127aH per day. Or looking at it another way, that's 1.25 batteries (assuming there's no input to the batteries over that time period).

                            Getting the battery monitor is a very good idea IMHO. Well worth the $$$--in fact I think it's an indispensable part of your future configuration.

                            Might be a bit overwhelming, but check out my master diagram showing all that I've done to my 315RLTS here: https://gdrvowners.com/forum/operati...lts-f-350-mods
                            Last edited by howson; 03-23-2022, 05:21 PM.
                            Forum moderators are not GD employees--we are volunteers and owners presumably just like yourself. Unless specifically mentioned otherwise, we have nothing to gain should you choose to purchase a product or engage a service we discuss on this forum.

                            2017 Ford F-350 DRW, '19 315RLTSPlus

                            Comment


                            • #15
                              I need to chime into this discussion..... I purchased the 2022, 303RLS the end of Dec. and have been in an ongoing discussion with Grand Design, Furrion and my Dealer.
                              I started my refrigerator at 11:00, placed some food in it and the next day at noon the unit had consumed 99amp hours of my lithium battery bank. This occurred on sunny, cloudless day's in Calif. Overnight lows were in the 30's with daytime highs in the 60's
                              Furrion's estimate of 150 amp hours per day is very close to right on. I have used the 303 on two additional trips and find the refrigerator to be a power hog. When accounting for shadows, season and the fact that the PV panels will be mounted flat, some studies have shown that we might need 600w of solar just to replenish the battery drawdown.
                              Grand Design told me that they have never made the claim that the Furrion Refrigerator and the 165w panel would allow you to park off the grid., but no one has provided the solar specifications to power the refrigerator at a safe operating temperature. Also, keep in mind that the max wattage of the Furrion solar controller is 600w. I think the days of camping with 400w of solar are long gone.
                              Good luck,

                              Bill and Shannon
                              2022 Reflection 303RLS
                              2021 F250, 6.7

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