Short circuit or surge?

[AlexPeterson]

I have a 50 amp trailer. The adapter to connect to 30 amp service ties the single hot line to the two 50 amp L1 and L2. The neutral is thru connected as usual.

An adapter to connect a 30 amp trailer to a 50 amp service will connect the one 30 amp hot line to one 50 amp hot line. The neutral is thru connected as usual.

Thanks - this confirms there would be no split circuits as are sometimes used in houses.

[Country Campers]

I can see from having to replace one of the stock receptacles that there would be a chance for a "floating neutral" inside one, they are not very good receptacles in my opinion. I would start by checking those receptacles that are in line with the problem circuit and even the Molex connector as mentioned previously.

Brian

[Lonestar]

Guest I have a Surge Guard 50A Surge Guard Portable Total Electrical Protection (Model: 34951) Surge Protector.

From the EMS brochure:

"These surge protectors detect elevated ground line currents generated inside of the RV. Model 34950 can discover an open neutral on the common neutral line from the device to main breaker."

Seems like the EMS would have shut down 120vac power from the trailer on first detection of floating neutral. But I assume if the floating neutral is downstream of the surge protector the shut down would not occur. Right?

[AlexPeterson]

From the EMS brochure:

"These surge protectors detect elevated ground line currents generated inside of the RV. Model 34950 can discover an open neutral on the common neutral line from the device to main breaker."

Seems like the EMS would have shut down 120vac power from the trailer on first detection of floating neutral. But I assume if the floating neutral is downstream of the surge protector the shut down would not occur. Right?

Yes, it would seem the loose neutral is downstream of the surge/low voltage protection. It almost has to be between the surge device and the distribution panel, the more I think about it, given my assessment that there are not split circuits in RV's.

[dgerfan]

Sorry folks I might have buried the lead. I've had off and on problems with the surge protector shutting power off because one of its monitored conditions exceeded a threshold. And most time after the surge protector recycles and power is restored, L1 which powers the bunkroom and bedroom outlets as well as the water heater has no power. My normal course of action was to go out to the pedestal and flip the 50A breaker off, connect the 30A-to-50A dog bone and now both legs are powered. I spoke about this in a previous thread and thought most of these issues were coming from that campground's pedestal. But now it looks like there might have been two separate issues occurring. Or the pedestal issue (mostly low voltage alerts) exasperated an issue with the RV wiring preventing L1 from receiving power.

We have left that RV park and moved to another park in November. Since our arrival we have had a couple instances where the same issue has arisen.

Here is the thread: https://gdrvowners.com/forum/operati...rotector/page3

[dgerfan]

I inspected each of the outlets in the circuit and don't believe there are any noticeable issue with them. These being RV outlets I'm not as familiar with them and cant be exactly sure if the hot, neutral and ground are seated properly. Would appreciate if someone could look at the pics and advise if you see any issues.

[dgerfan]

AlexPeterson I checked the voltage of the neutral and ground connections and the max reading I received was .4v. What was interesting is that the .4v reading on the bunk room outlets came from the top outlet whereas in the bedroom it was on the bottom outlet. Does this mean that the Supply and Load cables were in different order between these two sets of outlets? I guess I could do a continuity check however I don't have a long wire on hand to run from the bunk room to the bedroom.

[dgerfan]

I decided to switch over to inverter (removed shore power) to see if there were any issues and noticed that power in the RV drops after 20 - 45 minutes on inverter. Used to a meter to determine proper reading on the Inverter's Inverter-OUT hot line and followed that line to the AM Solar SPS and got a proper reading on its Inverter-IN. However NO reading on the connection from the SPS to the Breaker Box.

When I'm on shore power there is proper voltage on the SPS and Inverter where the shore power-IN connection is and the line from the SPS to the Breaker Box.

[Country Campers]

I inspected each of the outlets in the circuit and don't believe there are any noticeable issue with them. These being RV outlets I'm not as familiar with them and cant be exactly sure if the hot, neutral and ground are seated properly. Would appreciate if someone could look at the pics and advise if you see any issues.

Those look "fine" but what I found on the one I had an issue with was the paper around the ground wire was not allowing proper connection. I removed the paper and reseated the wires, these are a little tough to get back together, and it worked but I did replace it with a residential receptacle and an old work box from Lowes. I also had to enlarge the hole for the new box. The issue with the residential receptacle is residential requires that the wire be mounted solid to a surface with in 8" or 10" of the box, impossible to do in an RV ( I think those are the specs).

I am trying to remember back thru these posts if you checked all of the connections in the main power panel, if not that may be something that needs to be done as well.

Brian

[howson]

I decided to switch over to inverter (removed shore power) to see if there were any issues and noticed that power in the RV drops after 20 - 45 minutes on inverter. Used to a meter to determine proper reading on the Inverter's Inverter-OUT hot line and followed that line to the AM Solar SPS and got a proper reading on its Inverter-IN. However NO reading on the connection from the SPS to the Breaker Box.

When I'm on shore power there is proper voltage on the SPS and Inverter where the shore power-IN connection is and the line from the SPS to the Breaker Box.

Hmmm..the Smart Phase Selector (SPS) does add an extra layer of complexity. The SPS I had failed (mechanically) which was discovered while tracing the source of a loud hum. The thread wanders all over the place, but the documentation of the failure is here if interested: https://gdrvowners.com/forum/operati...ending-failure

Howard

[Yoda]

I can see from having to replace one of the stock receptacles that there would be a chance for a "floating neutral" inside one, they are not very good receptacles in my opinion. I would start by checking those receptacles that are in line with the problem circuit and even the Molex connector as mentioned previously.

Brian

dgerfan

Keep in mind there are TWO molex connectors involved in slide wiring. One will be in the belly connecting the rigid romex to flexible cable. The other will be in the slide somewhere converting the flex cable back to romex, unless they wired the slide outlets with the flex cable. On my slide wiring the first Molex was just inside the frame where the slide wiring camethrough. The second Molex I found wall mounted to the pantry beside the back of the fridge.

Take a picture of the wall outlet when you pull it if you can. OOPS I see you did - sorry

Hope you find a solution.

Keith

[Yoda]

I inspected each of the outlets in the circuit and don't believe there are any noticeable issue with them. These being RV outlets I'm not as familiar with them and cant be exactly sure if the hot, neutral and ground are seated properly. Would appreciate if someone could look at the pics and advise if you see any issues.

Yep I see a problem - the paper that is around the ground (bare copper wire) should not extend into the receptacle. If the inserted plug does not make perfect contact it can heat up and the paper can scorch or ignite. In the second photo (bunk wall) the paper is directly against the plug contacts. Is this the plug that smoked? The paper can also interfere with the ground connection as Brian mentioned. I learned that from my house wiring inspection. I would also send theses pictures to GD for thier take. I am not an electrician, but in CO you can do you own house wiring and have it State inspected. I had to re-do a lot of outlets and be sure the paper was trimmed back fully to the romex. That paper in the outler could be the problem.

Try to help
Keith

On edit Looking close at the bunk room wall outlet (300% enlarged) I can see the paper contacts the ground and hot lead. Paper can be conductive under certain circumstances like being damp. I also believe I see scorch marks (pinholes) lower left on hot side of lower plug point. Its where the paper in pinched in against the hot side spring bar where the plug face would be. The block hot lead insulation also looks like it got hot at the contact points, but that may just be the install. Current through the paper could also cause some of you voltage fluctuations.

[AlexPeterson]

AlexPeterson I checked the voltage of the neutral and ground connections and the max reading I received was .4v. What was interesting is that the .4v reading on the bunk room outlets came from the top outlet whereas in the bedroom it was on the bottom outlet. Does this mean that the Supply and Load cables were in different order between these two sets of outlets? I guess I could do a continuity check however I don't have a long wire on hand to run from the bunk room to the bedroom.

.4 v is a lot to measure between ground and neutral in a single outlet. Somewhere upstream of that measurement might be a crummy neutral connection. Plug some notable load (like a small electric skillet or heater) into one of the outlets you are reading .4v on, and then again measure between ground and neutral in that same outlet's position while the load is connected. I assume your voltmeter does zero to 0 when shorted together.

[Yoda]

.4 v is a lot to measure between ground and neutral in a single outlet. Somewhere upstream of that measurement might be a crummy neutral connection. Plug some notable load (like a small electric skillet or heater) into one of the outlets you are reading .4v on, and then again measure between ground and neutral in that same outlet's position while the load is connected. I assume your voltmeter does zero to 0 when shorted together.

In the bunk room wall photo the paper is also wrapped against the neutral wire side of the plug. As a quick check I would pull the paper out of the two affected plugs and retest. This makes me want to check the plugs in my unit too - I am adding it to my spring list. From my high school and college electronics class, any non conductive material (wood, paper, rubber, plastic, etc) can conduct electricity if water is present in some form as can happen from condensation in out RV walls. Maybe I am wrong on this, but that is what I remember. An OSHA example was a worker electrocuted even with rubber boots (snow on boot provided path).

Just brainstorming here.

Keith

[Scott'n'Wendy]

Poor neutral connections in those rec's will not smoke equipment. If open neutral caused the smoked equipment, it's between the pedestal and the dist. panel.