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  • Short circuit or surge?

    On Monday night while my wife was tucking in our 8 year she noticed that the night light in his room was was on while his room light was on. There weren't any obstructions covering its light sensor so it shouldn't have been on. She proceeded to turn off the light in his room and noticed the night light was dim so she swapped it out with the night light in the bathroom.

    A couple minutes later she came back into the room and noticed a distinct burning smell coming from the outlet. She immediately sent him outside and I turned off the breaker the bunk room and bedroom outlets are on. I removed the night light and verified it was the source of the burning smell. At the time this occurred the following items were connected to the bunk room and bedroom outlets: Son's electric blanket(Off), our electric blanket(Off), night light(On) and Sleep Number pump(On). All of these items are fried/not operational with the exception of my son's electric blanket (which doesn't make sense). Later that night I plugged in a Kill-A-Watt and noticed the voltage was fluctuating from 120-126.

    I haven't yet checked all the wiring for chaffing and all the outlets for loose wire but plan to get on that asap. In the meantime does anyone have any ideas of what could have caused this?

    From now on I'm going to make sure that all expensive electronics are at least plugged into a surge protector. Is there any other precautions that we should take such as replacing the bedroom outlets with GFCIs? Putting in in-wall surge protectors? Thanks in advance for your help.
    2020 Reflection 31MB
    2017 Ford F-350 Lariat 6.7

    2019 Ford F-250 STX Gas(Retired due to inability to slow down on steep downhill grades)

  • #2
    dgerfan Do you have an EMS? I've seen some crazy voltages as well as high water pressures at campgrounds. An EMS in addition to a water pressure regulator will protect for most campground utility issues and will diagnose issues with both 30 and 50amp circuits.

    Progressive Industries makes a great unit whether you use the pedestal model or the integrated model. They have a lifetime full replacement warranty as well.

    https://www.progressiveindustries.net/

    Jim

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    • #3
      DgerFan. 114 to 126 Volts AC is the tolerance typically allowed on the U.S. power grid. And electrical items should not be damaged by those voltages. The first thing I'd do is visually inspect all the outlets in the circuit to check for loose wires which could cause a high resistance contact and the burning smell you detected. If you're going to replace outlets with household type, check out combination AFCI/GFCI outlets. This is what we recently installed in our home during a remodel. AFCI provides arc fault protection. You only need one of these as the first outlet in the circuit, then the remainder of the outlets are protected. Here's an example.

      https://smile.amazon.com/Leviton-AGT...24&sr=8-4&th=1

      Jim
      Jim and Ginnie
      2024 Solitude 310GK
      GDRV Technical Forum Moderator
      GDRV Rally Support Coordinator

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      • #4
        Guest I have a Surge Guard 50A Surge Guard Portable Total Electrical Protection (Model: 34951) Surge Protector. Along with the wireless LCD screen. Like anyone we come and go from the RV so I'm not totally aware of what electrical events occur especially since the LCD screen doesn't have date and time stamps on events. Something I already complained about in a prior post so I won't belabor that again.

        Earlier in the day while on 30 Amp we did overload the breaker with the fireplace, instant pot, A/C (to get out moisture) and water heater. However this was several hours before the night light fried.
        2020 Reflection 31MB
        2017 Ford F-350 Lariat 6.7

        2019 Ford F-250 STX Gas(Retired due to inability to slow down on steep downhill grades)

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        • #5
          dgerfan

          Just to ensure I'm conveying accurate information--we're discussing the bunkroom slideout (pointing to it in pic below)?

          Click image for larger version

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          If "yes", and if the "Electric Plan" for the 31MB is accurate, there are three outlets in the bunkroom on the General Receptacle circuit breaker. Now the fun part--there's five more outlets in the living room on this circuit and four more outlets in the bedroom on this same circuit. Yep--twelve outlets on one breaker. (This is according to the "Plan".)

          I believe there is going to be one Molex connection involved since there is an outlet in the Theater Seating/Pantry slide. That's where I'd start since these are known to cause issues--especially if there's any water intrusion. You'll find the connector under the slide and above the coroplast. (There's info on Molex connectors here on the forum--if you can't find it fire back.)

          For the rest of the outlets a physical inspection of each one of them is warranted.

          Consider making your own "map" of the outlets (I'm sure you've seen mine as it's been posted numerous times) since what I show above may not be accurate. The documentation the moderators have access to view is not always right, unfortunately, so don't take this as "gospel".

          Howard

          Forum moderators are not GD employees--we are volunteers and owners presumably just like yourself. Unless specifically mentioned otherwise, we have nothing to gain should you choose to purchase a product or engage a service we discuss on this forum.

          2017 Ford F-350 DRW, '19 315RLTSPlus

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          • #6
            Originally posted by TucsonJim View Post
            DgerFan. 114 to 126 Volts AC is the tolerance typically allowed on the U.S. power grid. And electrical items should not be damaged by those voltages. The first thing I'd do is visually inspect all the outlets in the circuit to check for loose wires which could cause a high resistance contact and the burning smell you detected. If you're going to replace outlets with household type, check out combination AFCI/GFCI outlets. This is what we recently installed in our home during a remodel. AFCI provides arc fault protection. You only need one of these as the first outlet in the circuit, then the remainder of the outlets are protected. Here's an example.

            https://smile.amazon.com/Leviton-AGT...24&sr=8-4&th=1

            Jim
            Thanks Jim, I will get a couple AFCI/GFCI outlets and install at least one on each circuit.
            2020 Reflection 31MB
            2017 Ford F-350 Lariat 6.7

            2019 Ford F-250 STX Gas(Retired due to inability to slow down on steep downhill grades)

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            • #7
              howson Yes the burning smell was coming from the dresser outlet in the bunk room but it also bricked everything plugged into the bedroom outlets.

              The Electric Plan that GD provided doesn't exactly match my unit:

              1.) There are only two outlets in the bunkroom - one above the dresser and the other on the shared wall with the bathroom
              2.) The island has two outlets.
              3.) There is no outlet by the refrigerator ( maybe the author meant it to be by the island).
              4.) The outlet by the foot of the bed is actually in the bathroom ( There is a total of three outlets in the bedroom)

              The breaker that the bunkroom and bedroom outlets are on is labeled "Converter". I have it turned off and these are the only outlets that aren't hot.

              I will need to map out the connections to each breaker and add them to the "Electric Plan" that you provided so that if a issue arises I'm aware of the possible impact. Thanks for that.

              I did see the discussion about the Molex connection and will be sure to check out once the Converter circuit is back up.

              Do you believe this issue wouldn't have happened if there was GFCI protection on each circuit and we were using in-wall surge protectors? I would really like to avoid this in the future as I now have to replace $600 worth of electronics.
              2020 Reflection 31MB
              2017 Ford F-350 Lariat 6.7

              2019 Ford F-250 STX Gas(Retired due to inability to slow down on steep downhill grades)

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              • #8
                dgerfan This sounds possibly like a floating neutral on a split circuit to me. I assume you had the problem while connected with the 50 amp plug? I have no clue if RV's which use the 50amp service are wired with what (in home wiring) is called a split circuit or not. Split circuits are two separate circuits (not to be confused with outlets), each with their own 20amp or whatever size breaker. However, the two breakers are supplied with opposite legs of the 240v line. These two circuits share a common neutral (white) line. If this neutral should become disconnected, off balance loads on the two circuits can cause one to have much higher than 120v and the other to have much less. Either one might cause electronics problems.

                I know little to nothing about 120v RV wiring practices, but if this were a home, my best guess is the above.
                Ottertail, Minnesota
                2022 Imagine 2500RL VIN 573TE3029N6637046
                2022 Ford F-150 Lariat, SuperCrew, long box, max tow

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                • #9
                  Originally posted by dgerfan View Post
                  Do you believe this issue wouldn't have happened if there was GFCI protection on each circuit and we were using in-wall surge protectors? I would really like to avoid this in the future as I now have to replace $600 worth of electronics.
                  Unknown at this point without knowing exactly what is causing the issue.

                  AlexPeterson -- if dgerfan turns on the breaker controlling the suspect outlets, can a floating neutral condition (post 8) be found using a simple circuit tester? The assumption on my part is it would only take a minute or two and then power could be turned back off.

                  Also-- dgerfan -- leaving the Converter breaker off for too long may cause another problem--the RV's battery will eventually run out of power. (Remember--the converter is what keeps the battery charged when connected to shore power.)

                  Howard
                  Last edited by howson; 01-06-2023, 12:14 PM.
                  Forum moderators are not GD employees--we are volunteers and owners presumably just like yourself. Unless specifically mentioned otherwise, we have nothing to gain should you choose to purchase a product or engage a service we discuss on this forum.

                  2017 Ford F-350 DRW, '19 315RLTSPlus

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                  • #10
                    Originally posted by howson View Post

                    AlexPeterson -- if dgerfan turns the on breaker controlling the suspect outlets, can a floating neutral condition (post 8) be found using a simple circuit tester? The assumption on my part is it would only take a minute or two and then power could be turned back off.
                    It may detect it, but a floating neutral has the potential to 'brick' every 120vac device in the trailer. IE, microwave, furnace, A/C...so if what Alex suspects is correct, and I believe there is a decent chance of that, isolate everything you can while investigating.

                    An open neutral in JUST the plug cct will not give you the higher voltage unless neutrals are tied together in a peculiar fashion.


                    Last edited by Scott'n'Wendy; 01-06-2023, 08:19 AM.
                    2018 Dodge 3500 6.7 Cummins w Aisin and 9 cup holders
                    Not to brag or anything about my finances, but my bank calls me about every day to tell me my balance is OUTSTANDING!

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                    • #11
                      Originally posted by Scott'n'Wendy View Post
                      It may detect it, but a floating neutral has the potential to 'brick' every 120vac device in the trailer. IE, microwave, furnace, A/C...so if what Alex suspects is correct, and I believe there is a decent chance of that, isolate everything you can while investigating.

                      An open neutral in JUST the plug cct will not give you the higher voltage unless neutrals are tied together in a peculiar fashion.

                      So is a "floating neutral" literally a loose (or disconnected) wire? How would an owner find it?
                      Forum moderators are not GD employees--we are volunteers and owners presumably just like yourself. Unless specifically mentioned otherwise, we have nothing to gain should you choose to purchase a product or engage a service we discuss on this forum.

                      2017 Ford F-350 DRW, '19 315RLTSPlus

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                      • #12
                        Originally posted by dgerfan View Post

                        Thanks Jim, I will get a couple AFCI/GFCI outlets and install at least one on each circuit.
                        Remember if you replace the "RV" outlets with "household" outlets, you will need to install an outlet box to install it in.
                        Jim (& Sharon)
                        2015 GD Momentum 385TH w/ Joy Rider shocks, Sailun 637s & 3" Garage extension, LifeBlue Lithium.
                        2015 Ford F-350 DRW 4x4 Lariat w/ AirLift bags, Titan 65 gal. OEM replacement fuel tank.
                        The toys:
                        2017 RZR XP 1000 EPS SE
                        2018 Fiat Abarth Cabrio

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                        • #13
                          Originally posted by howson View Post

                          So is a "floating neutral" literally a loose (or disconnected) wire? How would an owner find it?
                          Yes, a disconnected wire/bad connection. howson Scott'n'Wendy To help diagnose, I have a pertinent question for those with 50amp services: when connecting via an adaptor to a 30amp plug, do all the 120v outlets work when doing so? If the answer is yes, there are no split circuits in these units. If this is the case, as I suspect it is, then the open neutral would likely be in the distribution panel or somewhere upstream of it. Physically checking these connections is in order. Give every wire a tug, tighten every screw. Redo any Wago connectors on neutrals (I'm not a fan of these despite what "the internet" says...I covered that in a different thread so no rehashing needed here).

                          dgerfan Connecting your rig to a 30amp plug should allow you to limp along, as you will not have any high or low voltages trying to trash things (only 120v exists in the system). While connected to the 30amp, check every outlet for proper ~120v between the hot and neutrals. Also check for any voltage between the neutral (longer slot in the outlet) and the ground - there should be none. Same process for items wired directly to the 120v system.

                          I don't see any connection to the blown breakers earlier in the day to this problem.

                          Arc fault/GFI would not help in the situation of an open neutral. Local surge protectors would stop the high voltages should they occur, but not sure how those devices deal with undervoltage conditions. Either situation could have fried the electronics. No surprise the blanket is fine - it's just a resistor that can tolerate low voltages and high, at least for a period.

                          This sort of problem is very hard to diagnose remotely... I hope this helps.
                          Ottertail, Minnesota
                          2022 Imagine 2500RL VIN 573TE3029N6637046
                          2022 Ford F-150 Lariat, SuperCrew, long box, max tow

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                          • #14
                            I have a 50 amp trailer. The adapter to connect to 30 amp service ties the single hot line to the two 50 amp L1 and L2. The neutral is thru connected as usual.

                            An adapter to connect a 30 amp trailer to a 50 amp service will connect the one 30 amp hot line to one 50 amp hot line. The neutral is thru connected as usual.
                            Ted
                            2021 Reflection 310RLS
                            2020 F350 PS,CC,LB,SRW

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                            • #15
                              Agree, open neutrals are hard to track. The first place I would look is where the chord connects on the inside of the camper to the plug. IIRC Several people during install of EMS have found these to be less than stellar connections due to lack of proper torque on the wire connections. From there the next and most likely place to create the issue is where the neutral enters the breaker panel.

                              These are the two most likely places I can picture in my mind that could create a high voltage the system. If any of the other neutrals are weak in the camper the circuit should just not work on that circuit (no way for the two legs to cross creating the 240 VAC). Again this is how I picture it. Someone with more elect experience may have a better explanation.
                              Joseph
                              Tow
                              Vehicle: 2024 GMC K3500 Denali Ultimate Diesel
                              Coach: 303RLS Delivered March 5, 2021
                              South of Houston Texas

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