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  • Progressive EMS-HW50C Hum

    An internet search returned more links and threads on the subject of a Progressive EMS hum than I cared to read. The few that I did all came to the same conclusion: the hum is from an aged or dirty contactor. I called and talked to Progressive's tech support and then submitted a claim form today, so obviously I'm waiting for a reply.

    The purpose of this thread is to show the tool I used to objectively measure the hum before talking to the Progressive tech.

    First though, a shout out to AlexPeterson who first mentioned the Spectroid app here: https://gdrvowners.com/forum/operati...260#post109260 It's a very useful app!

    Below is a screenshot with just ambient noise in the trailer. All power is off. In PowerPoint I added the blue vertical and horizontal lines that cross at the point of interest (db level at 120hz).

    Click image for larger version  Name:	image.png Views:	0 Size:	268.5 KB ID:	110065

    This next screenshot is with the phone in the exact same location (near the internal EMS) but with external power applied. FYI, there was no difference in the hum with the Victron Multiplus I have installed in my trailer either on or off.

    Click image for larger version  Name:	image.png Views:	0 Size:	273.6 KB ID:	110066

    I was surprised the app identified the hum as 120hz -- I expected a 60hz measurement. Given the baseline of -99db and the measured -65 db, I think that means the hum is 34db? (I understand the basics of decibel measurements but make no claim to expertise.) Someone please correct me if that's wrong.

    Regardless of the numbers, that hum is very noticeable and a nuisance.

    I learned after taking the shots shown in this post that it is possible to zoom in using the "pinch" method. Apparently there's a lot more to learn about the app. For more about how to zoom, see https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=npUQj0nLw88 Using Spectroid to find The Hum by a content creator named Zalex.

    I'll update this thread once the hum is resolved.

    Howard

    P.S. Yoda -- since the Spectroid app is free, I'm not sure you're allowed to get it.
    Forum moderators are not GD employees--we are volunteers and owners presumably just like yourself. Unless specifically mentioned otherwise, we have nothing to gain should you choose to purchase a product or engage a service we discuss on this forum.

    2017 Ford F-350 DRW, '19 315RLTSPlus

  • #2
    A contactor that has significant surface rust or one that has lost it's shading pole can cause quite noticeable humming. The only real fix is replacement.
    2018 Dodge 3500 6.7 Cummins w Aisin and 9 cup holders
    Not to brag or anything about my finances, but my bank calls me about every day to tell me my balance is OUTSTANDING!

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    • #3
      howson Howard - thanks for the shout-out.

      Per the Spectroid app developer:

      Q: Why are the dB values negative?

      A: Spectroid uses dBFS (Full Scale) where 0 dB is the maximum power that the microphone can measure, so the decibel values are negative because the measured power is less than the maximum power.


      The app has no absolute calibration, so the 34dB of your hum is relative to the background noise at the freq you measured it. To "calibrate" your ear, see this link.

      BTW - since there are 120 voltage "pulses" per second (each 60hz full wave goes from zero to about +170v down to -170v and back to zero), it makes sense that vibrations/noise/hums are at 120hz.
      Ottertail, Minnesota
      2022 Imagine 2500RL VIN 573TE3029N6637046
      2022 Ford F-150 Lariat, SuperCrew, long box, max tow

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      • #4
        Originally posted by AlexPeterson View Post

        BTW - since there are 120 voltage "pulses" per second (each 60hz full wave goes from zero to about +170v down to -170v and back to zero), it makes sense that vibrations/noise/hums are at 120hz.
        Right on with the 120hz. As the sine wave passes through zero, the tendency would be for the coil to release. The shading coil prevents this from happening. This from Wikipedia:
        For contactors energized with alternating current, a small part of the core is surrounded with a shading coil, which slightly delays the magnetic flux in the core. The effect is to average out the alternating pull of the magnetic field and so prevent the core from buzzing at twice line frequency.​
        Last edited by Jomani; 04-11-2023, 04:05 PM.
        2022 Ram 2500 4x4, 6.7 Cummins, RamBox, Air Lift 5000 Ultimate Plus, B&W Companion
        2022 Reflection 303RLS, Progressive hardwired EMS, Airborne Sidewinder​
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        • #5
          Originally posted by howson View Post
          An internet search returned more links and threads on the subject of a Progressive EMS hum than I cared to read. The few that I did all came to the same conclusion: the hum is from an aged or dirty contactor. I called and talked to Progressive's tech support and then submitted a claim form today, so obviously I'm waiting for
          Since I just happened to have a spare Progressive 50amp EMS sitting on my bench, I wanted to see what contactor they use. Just in case Progressive Industries doesn’t cover you under warranty, it is nice to know that a replacement contactor is readily available.

          Click image for larger version

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          https://www.amazon.com/Hartland-Cont.../dp/B07S2WM24T
          2022 Ram 2500 4x4, 6.7 Cummins, RamBox, Air Lift 5000 Ultimate Plus, B&W Companion
          2022 Reflection 303RLS, Progressive hardwired EMS, Airborne Sidewinder​
          YouTube Chanel

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          • #6
            Originally posted by Jomani View Post

            Right on with the 120hz. As the sine wave passes through zero, the tendency would be for the coil to release. The shading coil prevents this from happening. This from Wikipedia:
            For contactors energized with alternating current, a small part of the core is surrounded with a shading coil, which slightly delays the magnetic flux in the core. The effect is to average out the alternating pull of the magnetic field and so prevent the core from buzzing at twice line frequency.​
            Reading the wikipedia page link you provided (thanks!) it reminded me of a battle I had with a sprinkler system. Every six months or so there'd be an obnoxious hum from the pump relay. The installer swapped out that mechanical relay at least four times in two years. I finally had enough and looked at it myself when the relay again started buzzing incessantly. What I found was a severely corroded and rusted component. (Stuff wears out quick when it's outside in Florida.) I swapped out the mechanical relay for an Orbit Solid State (Pump) Relay and haven't had a problem since (years).

            That leads to an obvious question: I wonder if there is an SSR equivalent to the HCC-3XT04CG? I did some searching and found that Hartland Controls is now part of Littlefuse, but there's nothing I could find outside of mechanical components.

            Howard
            Forum moderators are not GD employees--we are volunteers and owners presumably just like yourself. Unless specifically mentioned otherwise, we have nothing to gain should you choose to purchase a product or engage a service we discuss on this forum.

            2017 Ford F-350 DRW, '19 315RLTSPlus

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            • #7
              Originally posted by howson View Post
              That leads to an obvious question: I wonder if there is an SSR equivalent to the HCC-3XT04CG? I did some searching and found that Hartland Controls is now part of Littlefuse, but there's nothing I could find outside of mechanical components.
              Howard
              Interesting thought. It has been a long time since I worked with SSRs (late 80s). From what I remember, heat and leakage was an issue. I am sure they have made significant advances since then. One would think that someone has developed a non-mechanical EMS solution.
              2022 Ram 2500 4x4, 6.7 Cummins, RamBox, Air Lift 5000 Ultimate Plus, B&W Companion
              2022 Reflection 303RLS, Progressive hardwired EMS, Airborne Sidewinder​
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              • #8
                Originally posted by Jomani View Post

                Since I just happened to have a spare Progressive 50amp EMS sitting on my bench, I wanted to see what contactor they use. Just in case Progressive Industries doesn’t cover you under warranty, it is nice to know that a replacement contactor is readily available.
                I did not expect a 600v 3 phase contactor.

                2018 Dodge 3500 6.7 Cummins w Aisin and 9 cup holders
                Not to brag or anything about my finances, but my bank calls me about every day to tell me my balance is OUTSTANDING!

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                • #9
                  I would think the reason for a mechanical contactor rather than SSR is for complete isolation.
                  Last edited by Scott'n'Wendy; 04-22-2023, 06:42 PM.
                  2018 Dodge 3500 6.7 Cummins w Aisin and 9 cup holders
                  Not to brag or anything about my finances, but my bank calls me about every day to tell me my balance is OUTSTANDING!

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                  • #10
                    The replacement EMS showed up yesterday so installed it this afternoon.

                    Before swapping I took a Spectroid snapshot and took another snapshot with the new EMS. The captures reflect what the ear is telling me--the old one had a definitive hum but the new one is completely silent.

                    Click image for larger version

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                    Not much difference inside at first glance.

                    Click image for larger version

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                    The circuit cards are different, but the capability hasn't changed (to my knowledge).

                    Click image for larger version

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                    I'm going to replace the contactor in the old unit and I'll have a "hot spare" ready to go.

                    Bottom line: awesome customer service from Progressive Industries. Wish the EMS-HW50C had a contactor that didn't go bad over time, but other than that I highly recommend their product.

                    Howard




                    Forum moderators are not GD employees--we are volunteers and owners presumably just like yourself. Unless specifically mentioned otherwise, we have nothing to gain should you choose to purchase a product or engage a service we discuss on this forum.

                    2017 Ford F-350 DRW, '19 315RLTSPlus

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                    • #11
                      Progressive has been great for us. The EMS was my first addition to our class C. Progressive is local to us and I went there and picked it up. A tech came from the back and showed me one that was on their bench to help me understand the install. Our first weekend trial was to a campground near the dealer and Progressive was 5 minutes out of the way, The tech told me that if I needed to I could come back by on the way to the lake and that they would help me with the install.
                      Jerry and Kelly Powell, with Halo, Nash, Reid, Cleo, Rosie, and the two newest additions Shaggy and Bella..
                      Nash County, NC
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                      • #12
                        Originally posted by howson View Post
                        Wish the EMS-HW50C had a contactor that didn't go bad over time, but other than that I highly recommend their product.

                        Howard
                        Working with power contactors for over 30 years. Humming is a very common occurrence. They can work just fine for years while humming. Not ideal in living quarters like a trailer though.....
                        You would be surprised how loud 600v 3 Ph. contactors can be.....
                        Glad progressive came through for you Howard!

                        2018 Dodge 3500 6.7 Cummins w Aisin and 9 cup holders
                        Not to brag or anything about my finances, but my bank calls me about every day to tell me my balance is OUTSTANDING!

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