Battery charging wire size

[Oregon Fun-Guy]

Prior to owning a GD trailer, I had a trailer that was set up for dry camping. I had dual 6v batteries wired in series, a 100 watt solar charger, and two 2000 watt generators to handle the electrical needs of the trailer. Now that I've taken my Imagine 2150rb dry camping I find that the same electrical equipment will not maintain the batteries with enough power to run especially my CPAP machine at night. I checked the electrical system and found that the main difference between the two trailers is that the new trailer only has an 8 AWG wire running from the converter to the batteries. I am wondering why GD has chosen to run this wire at least 24 feet (without including the distance for the wire to get to and from the shutoff switch). The charts that I see that for suggested wire size says there should be a 6 or 4 AWG wire to run this distance. Using voltage drop calculations for the 8WG wire, only 80 to 85% of the converter's output get to the batteries. I would like to replace this wire with a 4 AWG wire to maximize the converter output, but I am wondering if the warranty will still be valid after I do this? I also would like to know if GD knows why a bigger wire wouldn't be appropriate? Any thoughts?

[TucsonJim]

A bigger wire would not void any warranties at all unless the converter failed. And at about $200 for a new one, it's not a biggie. I believe the wire GDRV uses is actually 6 AWG, but even if it is, it wouldn't hurt a thing to go bigger.

But I think your best investment might be to purchase a Battery Management System like the Victron BMV-712 that many of us use. It takes all the guess work out of how much current is going to your batteries and gives you very good idea on the battery bank's state of charge. The lights on your control panel may say the battery is fully charged, but they are notoriously inaccurate. You may only be at a 75-80% state of charge when the panel says you're fully charged. The nice thing about the BMV-712 is that it can be bluetooth connected with your phone so you can see the status while inside your coach.

Once you can accurately measure your battery SOC, you may find out that you need to run your generator quite a bit longer to get those batteries fully charged.

Jim

[Oregon Fun-Guy]

Thanks Jim,

The wire being used is an 8 AWG on my model. This is both the battery wire installed by the dealer and the wire that goes back toward the converter installed at the factory. I am able to easily get to these.

I do have a cheaper version of battery monitor. It isn't as good as the Victron but it does show me the charge going back to the batteries. An upgrade in monitor and other parts is in my plan. In terms of generator, I was having to run my generator for three hours a day which is longer than I have had to run the generator on my previous trailer which I had for four years. With the solar panels, I only had to run the generators for an hour previously. This was with the same model of converter. I was surprised to see the differences between the two trailers.

My concern over warranty comes from something said by the dealer's staff. They basically said if I changed anything in the trailer my warranty would be voided.That is why I am curious to hear from the manufacturer.

[Oregon Fun-Guy]

The dealer staff lied to you.

Hmmm... Imagine that

[howson]

Thanks Jim,

The wire being used is an 8 AWG on my model. This is both the battery wire installed by the dealer and the wire that goes back toward the converter installed at the factory. I am able to easily get to these.

I do have a cheaper version of battery monitor. It isn't as good as the Victron but it does show me the charge going back to the batteries. An upgrade in monitor and other parts is in my plan. In terms of generator, I was having to run my generator for three hours a day which is longer than I have had to run the generator on my previous trailer which I had for four years. With the solar panels, I only had to run the generators for an hour previously. This was with the same model of converter. I was surprised to see the differences between the two trailers.

My concern over warranty comes from something said by the dealer's staff. They basically said if I changed anything in the trailer my warranty would be voided.That is why I am curious to hear from the manufacturer.

GDRV-Megan -- can you check with your Imagine factory personnel and confirm that 8AWG is the correct wire to connect the battery to the converter output? The specific trailer is a 2019 2150RB. As TucsonJim noted (and is true in my 315RLTS), the wire gauge I've seen for this wire run is 6AWG. The OP, Oregon Fun-Guy , has stated he's checked and confirmed the wire in his Imagine 2019 2150RB is 8AWG.

If 8AWG is correct, any information on why that gauge was chosen over 6AWG would be helpful to answer the "why 8" question.

A comment on how GD views warranty claims when there are customer modifications involved would be helpful here, too. (I'm pretty sure GD's stance is going to be, "if the mod caused the issue there's no claim--but something not related doesn't matter" or something to that effect.)

TIA!

-Howard

[Guest]

I've never seen more than 10 amps of charge current at my single 12V deep cycle battery (at 50% SOC) from the WFCO converter charger. This is while being powered from a 3600 watt inverter generator. Buying a new converter charger and will mount it in the passthrough. This way after disconnecting the WFCO unit, I can run two short heavy cables directly to the battery and keep the original wiring in place to power the 12V components in the rig.

Jim

[Oregon Fun-Guy]

GDRV-Megan -- can you check with your Imagine factory personnel and confirm that 8AWG is the correct wire to connect the battery to the converter output? The specific trailer is a 2019 2150RB. As TucsonJim noted (and is true in my 315RLTS), the wire gauge I've seen for this wire run is 6AWG. The OP, Oregon Fun-Guy , has stated he's checked and confirmed the wire in his Imagine 2019 2150RB is 8AWG.

If 8AWG is correct, any information on why that gauge was chosen over 6AWG would be helpful to answer the "why 8" question.

A comment on how GD views warranty claims when there are customer modifications involved would be helpful here, too. (I'm pretty sure GD's stance is going to be, "if the mod caused the issue there's no claim--but something not related doesn't matter" or something to that effect.)

TIA!

-Howard

Howard, Thank you for restating and redirecting my question. I wanted to be clear that what I am asking is not an attempt to accuse the company of anything. I want to make sure that there isn't something else being considered in their action. I do not have an EE degree to better inform me of the situation.

Jim (MidwestCamper), I would like to give WFCO the benefit of the doubt. I would like to get a more restricting issue (wire size) out of the way before I move the converter. The DC power still needs to get back to the distribution center. You could mitigate part of this issue by adding more batteries and installing an inverter to convert to AC which won't have the same voltage drop, but I'm not ready to go to that expense, yet. I first would like to be able to camp more than a few days without my CPAP. When this happens my horizons can stretch considerably.

Norm

[Guest]

Norm,

Understand you wanting to give the WFCO a chance. Running a new wire may result in more work than the charger is worth. Attached is the manual of the AIMS charger I just purchased where it should be a quick install. My plan is to plug this charger into an AC outlet in the passthrough, mount the unit out of the way and route two heavy cables to the battery. After disconnecting the WFCO charger, no other wiring would be needed on the rig. If I'm understanding you correctly, you feel you are not getting an adequate charge from the WFCO?

So this method would work where the original DC lines that are currently on the rig would still provide DC power from the battery to the distribution center. They would no longer be used for charging.

Not trying to push this on you. Just wanted to offer up an alternate solution to help.

AIMS Charger_CON120AC12-24VDC V1.5 01072019.pdf

Jim

[GDRV-Megan]

GDRV-Megan -- can you check with your Imagine factory personnel and confirm that 8AWG is the correct wire to connect the battery to the converter output? The specific trailer is a 2019 2150RB. As TucsonJim noted (and is true in my 315RLTS), the wire gauge I've seen for this wire run is 6AWG. The OP, Oregon Fun-Guy , has stated he's checked and confirmed the wire in his Imagine 2019 2150RB is 8AWG.

If 8AWG is correct, any information on why that gauge was chosen over 6AWG would be helpful to answer the "why 8" question.

A comment on how GD views warranty claims when there are customer modifications involved would be helpful here, too. (I'm pretty sure GD's stance is going to be, "if the mod caused the issue there's no claim--but something not related doesn't matter" or something to that effect.)

TIA!

-Howard

I can comment and state that the 8AWG is correct. That is all the detail I may speak on.

According to our compliance manager, based on his experience, he believes that you may have a dead cell in your battery, which may be causing it not hold a good charge.

As far as warranty voids, you are correct. If your modification or change directly affects or damages something on your unit, your warranty will be affected. We will still warrant other items if it has nothing to do with the modifications.

[Oregon Fun-Guy]

GDRV-Megan, Thank you for the response.

BTW, I checked the battery cells with a hydrometer and all cells read that they were fine.

[howson]

Prior to owning a GD trailer, I had a trailer that was set up for dry camping. I had dual 6v batteries wired in series, a 100 watt solar charger, and two 2000 watt generators to handle the electrical needs of the trailer. Now that I've taken my Imagine 2150rb dry camping I find that the same electrical equipment will not maintain the batteries with enough power to run especially my CPAP machine at night. I checked the electrical system and found that the main difference between the two trailers is that the new trailer only has an 8 AWG wire running from the converter to the batteries. I am wondering why GD has chosen to run this wire at least 24 feet (without including the distance for the wire to get to and from the shutoff switch). The charts that I see that for suggested wire size says there should be a 6 or 4 AWG wire to run this distance. Using voltage drop calculations for the 8WG wire, only 80 to 85% of the converter's output get to the batteries. I would like to replace this wire with a 4 AWG wire to maximize the converter output, but I am wondering if the warranty will still be valid after I do this? I also would like to know if GD knows why a bigger wire wouldn't be appropriate? Any thoughts?

I'm not an electrician nor an electrical engineer, but if I was troubleshooting your issue this is what I'd try:

1) Determine the charge profile recommended by the 6V battery manufacturer for a two-battery-in-series setup.
2) Compare voltage output from converter and voltage at batteries while bulk charging.

DETAILS
With batteries that are known to need a charge, plug in to shore power and measure the converter's output (voltage level). Now measure at the batteries. If there's a voltage drop across the wiring, and/or other various components, you'll be able to quantify the loss. If the voltage at the battery doesn't meet your battery's requirements (for bulk mode) you should then be able to determine if wiring will solve the issue (based on the voltage level of the converter at the source) or if a different charger is required.

[TucsonJim]

Hi Norm. Any chance that you could provide the model number of the WFCO brand converter that is installed?

Jim

[Oregon Fun-Guy]

Hi Norm. Any chance that you could provide the model number of the WFCO brand converter that is installed?

Jim

Jim, The converter is a WFCO 8955PEC

Howard, Thanks, I have a Renogy Battery Monitor that I can install that will give me an idea of what is happening. One of the issues is that the WFCO converter rarely goes into bulk mode. It is a known issue. I also need to learn a little about the restrictions to pulling the wire will be and I need to know how long the wire is. It may be as long as 37 feet. MidwestCamper might have the solution that is realistic.

[mbopp]

The WFCO isn't a real good converter for quick charging off a generator. Three trailers ago I bought a deck-mount IOTA converter to use. That converter currently resides in my Imagine inside the pass-through hookup center. I replaced the stock ground wire with a 4ga automotive starter cable to the frame tie point and from there ran another 6ga wire inside the pass-through to a grounding buss bar. The converter + side goes to the hot side of the disconnect switch. My solar MPPT controller is mounted to the wall by the hookup center and is also tied to the disconnect switch and grounding buss bar. This makes for a much shorter run to the dual 6V batteries.

[howson]

Jim, The converter is a WFCO 8955PEC

Howard, Thanks, I have a Renogy Battery Monitor that I can install that will give me an idea of what is happening. One of the issues is that the WFCO converter rarely goes into bulk mode. It is a known issue. I also need to learn a little about the restrictions to pulling the wire will be and I need to know how long the wire is. It may be as long as 37 feet. MidwestCamper might have the solution that is realistic.

Understood. I look forward to reading more as you work your way through this issue, so please post!