Announcement

Collapse
No announcement yet.

Lithium + Victron + Solar Install and questions

Collapse
X
 
  • Filter
  • Time
  • Show
Clear All
new posts

  • #46
    Originally posted by howson View Post

    On possibility--the WFCO's job is to do more than "just" charge the battery. It also powers the 12v systems in the trailer (slides, furnace, etc) when shore power is connected. 55 amps is the highest it will output under ideal conditions to the entire trailer to the distribution panel.

    Besides, it's it better to charge a wet-cell slowly? (I'm not a battery expert, but that's what I think I know. A lithium, in contrast, is happy to take [almost] every amp you can throw at it.)
    Howard,

    Agree the converter will power all the other items. Every deep cycle battery I've owned seems to take 10 amps and no more. I believe GDRV knows this when installing the 30 amp breaker. If a person were to drop in a lithium battery and do nothing else, the WFCO may then attempt to put out 55 amps and the breaker will open the circuit.

    Jim

    Comment


    • #47
      Click image for larger version  Name:	4.jpg Views:	0 Size:	129.9 KB ID:	20387
      Originally posted by MidwestCamper View Post

      Howard,

      Agree the converter will power all the other items. Every deep cycle battery I've owned seems to take 10 amps and no more. I believe GDRV knows this when installing the 30 amp breaker. If a person were to drop in a lithium battery and do nothing else, the WFCO may then attempt to put out 55 amps and the breaker will open the circuit.

      Jim
      Just anecdotal evidence. When I purchased my first two LiFePO4 batteries, I charged them with the OEM WFCO converter. The 30 amp breaker never triggered. I've since replaced my WFCO converter with a Progressive Dynamics 60 amp dedicated LiFePO4 converter and again, the breaker has not triggered.

      Attached is a photo of my breaker. Please disregard the wonderful factory wiring job. I've since rewired the whole mess. BTW, the breaker on the left was just used as a terminal block, and not a breaker.

      Jim
      Jim and Ginnie
      2024 Solitude 310GK
      GDRV Technical Forum Moderator
      GDRV Rally Support Coordinator

      Comment


      • #48
        TucsonJim Jim,

        The factory wiring is quite the can of spaghetti. Would you know why a 30 amp breaker pass 60 amps thought it? Would charging from the load side and not directly on the bi-metal portion of the breaker have anything to do with this?

        For my needs I am matching the 30 amp breaker on the OEM 8 AWG, where my Lithium charger does not run through this path anymore for charging.

        Also my new Schwintek motor came in today where its been upgraded to include shrink wrap over the motor. Not sure where I could post this but It may be of significance since I can see rust traces on the suspected motor.

        Jim
        Last edited by Guest; 06-02-2020, 07:07 PM.

        Comment


        • #49
          Originally posted by howson View Post

          Jim,
          If you mean the one's I have circled, on my 315RLTS they are all 30A breakers. The one with the "M" was added by MORryde for the disc brake system. It's a 40A breaker.

          Howard

          Click image for larger version

Name:	circuit breakers.JPG
Views:	918
Size:	213.7 KB
ID:	20086


          Howard: Where is this picture? Is this taken from under the coach? It seems like the pic has red/hot going to the frame?

          Originally posted by TucsonJim View Post
          Click image for larger version Name:	4.jpg Views:	0 Size:	129.9 KB ID:	20387

          Just anecdotal evidence. When I purchased my first two LiFePO4 batteries, I charged them with the OEM WFCO converter. The 30 amp breaker never triggered. I've since replaced my WFCO converter with a Progressive Dynamics 60 amp dedicated LiFePO4 converter and again, the breaker has not triggered.

          Attached is a photo of my breaker. Please disregard the wonderful factory wiring job. I've since rewired the whole mess. BTW, the breaker on the left was just used as a terminal block, and not a breaker.

          Jim


          Jim: Same question: Is that picture taken looking up from under the rig?
          2020 Imagine 2400BH
          2017 Ford F350 Platinum FX4/4x4 SuperCrew 6.7L V8 Diesel 9' Bed SRW, Leveled + Airbags

          Our Mods

          Comment


          • #50
            Originally posted by bellis View Post



            Howard: Where is this picture? Is this taken from under the coach? It seems like the pic has red/hot going to the frame?





            Jim: Same question: Is that picture taken looking up from under the rig?
            bellis

            On my Reflection travel trailer, the relays and connections were made on top of the A-frame behind the front cap. There is room under there for quite a few items. BTW, here is a photo of the same area after I "cleaned" up the wiring.

            Click image for larger version

Name:	6.jpg
Views:	688
Size:	117.0 KB
ID:	20478
            Jim and Ginnie
            2024 Solitude 310GK
            GDRV Technical Forum Moderator
            GDRV Rally Support Coordinator

            Comment


            • #51
              Originally posted by bellis View Post
              Howard: Where is this picture? Is this taken from under the coach? It seems like the pic has red/hot going to the frame?
              Yes, under the trailer behind the first crossbeam. Closer to the street side. Approximately where I've circled on the floorplan below.

              Click image for larger version

Name:	here are the breakers.JPG
Views:	674
Size:	117.9 KB
ID:	20488

              If there was a "hot" going to the frame it wouldn't work very long. Jim's wiring is a lot neater than mine in that location.

              Forum moderators are not GD employees--we are volunteers and owners presumably just like yourself. Unless specifically mentioned otherwise, we have nothing to gain should you choose to purchase a product or engage a service we discuss on this forum.

              2017 Ford F-350 DRW, '19 315RLTSPlus

              Comment


              • #52
                Originally posted by bellis View Post
                We are in the process of finalizing our purchase of a brand new Imagine 2400BH. So, we haven't even picked it up yet. We hope to do more off grid camping and as such I have hoped to install right off the bat an inverter and Lithium. Would also like to install solar on the roof. This unit has a 15k AC and we want to be able to run everything off grid. I also purchased a Honda 2200EU generator and propane conversion recently (from Hutch Mountain). I am looking at the following:

                1. (3) Battleborn batteries.
                2. (1) Multiplus 12/3000/120-50 VE Bus.
                3. (1) VE.Bus Smart dongle.
                4. (1) BMV-712.
                5. (1) SmartSolar MPPT 100/30 (size could change once I figure out how many solar panels).
                6. (1) Microair Easy Start 364.
                7. Possibly a Surge protector - Progressive Industries HW30C or LCHW30. I sent them an email to ask what the difference is between the 2 units.

                The dealership we bought the 2400BH from does not do solar installs and had no clue about anything Lithium/inverter (off grid) related. I figure if I know more about it than they do, I don't want them to install it. I am toying with installing all of the above myself, but am tempted to have someone do it who has done it before.

                Questions:

                1. Does anyone have any recommendations for an installer that has experience with Grand Design on the East Coast? I am willing to drive a bit, but we are located in WV.
                2. Should change the BMV-712 for the Smartshunt. I was going to install in the pass through behind the control/docking station so that possibly bluetooth would reach the truck while driving.
                3. Should I go with the Cerbo GX and GX Touch 50?
                4. They have a new MultiPlus-II GX - should I do it instead of the Multiplus?
                5. Should I install a surge protector (hardwired) as the first device that shore power hits?
                6. The 30 amp plug for this unit is on the back, where does it go (breaker/fuse box or control center in pass through?) and how does it get there? Under the floor?
                7. Will we be able to run AC off batteries?
                8. The major components are listed above, but is there a parts list for the little items that someone else has done (bus bars etc).
                9. Does anyone have any recommendation on monocrystalline solar panels? How many / much you need to recharge?

                Looking for videos of others who have installed and were willing to share.

                Very open to suggestions, comments, and feedback. Thanks in advance.
                it is a great plan.
                everything is seems to be perfect.
                since their is a solar panel on rooftop, i suggest you to use deep cycle battery.
                here is a reference best deep cycle battery for solar for you which will help you to select proper battery.

                Comment


                • #53
                  bellis

                  The 30 amp input from the back of trailer must run first to the power distribution panel since all other AC loads are fused there. Also the AC side of the converter charger is fed at this location. There may be room behind the power distribution panel to install the EMS. I took the easy route and use an external pedestal mounted unit. There are pro's and con's with this where if the internal unit goes bad, you will be doing some wiring during your camping trip. Where the external unit may not see a bad connection at the back of the rig at the plug. I suspect these plugs go bad from hot disconnecting/connecting so its best to not do that.
                  Jim

                  Comment


                  • #54
                    My plan / wiring diagram is far from complete....but I have done a good bit more work on it. I thought I would paste a v2 for others benefit here. Items left to do on the wiring diagram and questions I am working on.

                    1. Do I need additional bus bars on the X spots?
                    2. Do I need to run a 2nd wire from the negative bus bar to the multiplus, Cerbo, chassis, and MPPT as a ground?
                    3. Do I need to flip my fuse and first switch coming off the battery (switch on left)?
                    4. I really like the busbar's in my diagram. I cannot find the same product with more studs? https://www.amazon.com/dp/B07C5SC7TB...v_ov_lig_dp_it For that matter, this busbar is rated for 250 amps @ 12vdc - I think that is per stud...I didn't see the screw connections....but I guess I could buy 2 of these?

                    5. Do I need to worry about the trailer wiring? Is it connected to this at all? I do not intend to install a DC to DC charger and upgrade the wiring in my truck...is this wiring (brake lights, marker lights, flashers, etc) a separate circuit or is it connected?

                    6. I need to decide if I want the 2nd switch to only isolate solar power....or have a busbar with solar attached and the disconnect between the multiplus. Not sure what that would gain me. Still thinking things through.

                    As always feedback and criticism welcome! I know I have more work to do on this....just takes time to think it all through.
                    Attached Files
                    2020 Imagine 2400BH
                    2017 Ford F350 Platinum FX4/4x4 SuperCrew 6.7L V8 Diesel 9' Bed SRW, Leveled + Airbags

                    Our Mods

                    Comment


                    • #55
                      Originally posted by bellis View Post
                      1. Do I need additional bus bars on the X spots?
                      There's one positive (I used the large connection on the fuse holder) and one negative from the MPPT. I had no issues connecting the OEM ground, Multiplus negative, and MPPT negative to the shunt. (Any more and there'd be an issue.) The OEM ground is a relatively small 6 ga wire as that circuit will not carry more than 30A (due to the OEM's self-resetting 30A circuit breakers).

                      No reason you can't use a stud or bus bar if that works better for your configuration.

                      Click image for larger version

Name:	where I connected.JPG
Views:	1586
Size:	46.8 KB
ID:	21255

                      Originally posted by bellis View Post
                      2. Do I need to run a 2nd wire from the negative bus bar to the multiplus, Cerbo, chassis, and MPPT as a ground?
                      I'm not qualified to answer that question, but AMSolar did not have me wire my system with a 2nd wire.

                      Originally posted by bellis View Post
                      3. Do I need to flip my fuse and first switch coming off the battery (switch on left)?
                      I'm not qualified to answer that question. AMSolar approved the configuration you see in my drawing. Personally, I like that when I turn the first disconnect off the batteries are completely isolated from everything but the bus bars.

                      Originally posted by bellis View Post
                      4. I really like the busbar's in my diagram. I cannot find the same product with more studs? https://www.amazon.com/dp/B07C5SC7TB...v_ov_lig_dp_it For that matter, this busbar is rated for 250 amps @ 12vdc - I think that is per stud...I didn't see the screw connections....but I guess I could buy 2 of these?
                      As shown in my drawing, I needed a red one for positive and a black one for negative. Obviously I stacked two lugs on one stud since there are five connections with only four studs. This was not an AMSolar input--I did this myself as I found interconnecting the batteries using their studs almost impossible in the tight space where I installed my system.

                      Click image for larger version

Name:	battery connections.JPG
Views:	719
Size:	28.1 KB
ID:	21254

                      Originally posted by bellis View Post
                      5. Do I need to worry about the trailer wiring? Is it connected to this at all?
                      There's one charging wire (black) from your vehicle to the system via the 7-pin wiring. Mine is disconnected as the small amount of charge is negligible and wasn't worth incorporating (to me). The 7-pin shown below is an upgrade I installed with the solar install. (The OEM is in a metal box and will be a rat's nest of wiring.)

                      Click image for larger version

Name:	black wire.JPG
Views:	627
Size:	54.0 KB
ID:	21256

                      Originally posted by bellis View Post
                      6. I need to decide if I want the 2nd switch to only isolate solar power....or have a busbar with solar attached and the disconnect between the multiplus. Not sure what that would gain me. Still thinking things through.
                      AMSolar had me install a shutoff between the panels and the input of the MPPT. There's a 120A circuit breaker (that I can manually disengage) between the batteries and the MPPT. I strongly encourage you to do this (with a breaker size appropriate for your system), too. As you'll find in the installation instructions of the MPPT, you must apply battery power first to the MPPT then apply the PV (solar panel power) to the MPPT. When you want to isolate the MPPT for any reason, the PV must be turned off first and then the battery power (via the circuit breaker). This must be done in sequence.

                      I advise you to not skimp on these two devices. Look at my schematic and focus on the solar and you'll see what I'm referencing.

                      Click image for larger version

Name:	safety switches.JPG
Views:	766
Size:	20.8 KB
ID:	21253

                      Good luck. Look forward to reading about your install.

                      Howard

                      P.S. I'm compelled to remind you I'm not an electrician or qualified RV technician. I'm just an owner with some experience and opinions--verify, verify, verify.
                      Forum moderators are not GD employees--we are volunteers and owners presumably just like yourself. Unless specifically mentioned otherwise, we have nothing to gain should you choose to purchase a product or engage a service we discuss on this forum.

                      2017 Ford F-350 DRW, '19 315RLTSPlus

                      Comment


                      • #56
                        Busbars - Just depends on how you want your wiring.
                        BEP Marine has quite a variety, they do cost. https://www.bepmarine.com/en/product...d%20insulators

                        Grounds -
                        MPPT - many don't per https://community.victronenergy.com/...ification.html

                        Multiplus Chassis Ground
                        https://community.victronenergy.com/...is-ground.html

                        Multiplus 12/3000/120-50 Manual
                        4.3 Connection of the AC cabling
                        The MultiPlus is a safety class I product (supplied with a ground terminal for safety purposes). Its AC input and/or output terminals and/or grounding point on the outside of the product must be provided with an uninterruptible grounding point for safety purposes.
                        The MultiPlus is provided with a ground relay (relay H, see appendix B) that automatically connects the Neutral output to the chassis if no external AC supply is available. If an external AC supply is provided, the ground relay H will open before the input safety relay closes. This ensures the correct operation of an earth leakage circuit breaker that is connected to the output.
                        - In a fixed installation, an uninterruptable grounding can be secured by means of the grounding wire of the AC input. Otherwise the casing must be grounded.
                        - In a mobile installation (for example, with a shore current plug), interrupting the shore connection will simultaneously disconnect the grounding connection. In that case, the casing must be connected to the chassis (of the vehicle) or to the hull or grounding plate (of the boat).

                        CB after the EMS, I don't think one is needed.

                        Drawing on a Compact Multiplus for ideas https://www.reddit.com/r/vandwellers...d_the_install/

                        same as Howson says, I'm just a DIYer.
                        Gene and Kim
                        2015 Grand Design Reflection 317RST
                        2017 RAM 3500 CC, LB, 4x2, 6.7L CTD

                        Comment


                        • #57
                          Thanks howson and gbkims. No need for the disclaimers! I am in the same boat...and I try to verify multiple places.

                          Placed my order today. Only changes were 500A->1000A Smartshunt. Not because this is needed, but because the 500 is not available. I also upgraded the Solar Controller to the 150/85 based off how many watts of solar (max) I think I could place on the roof.

                          I flipped the position of the 400A fuse and battery switch.
                          I added a 120A Circuit Breaker to the solar controller / battery side (still need to pick this product out and purchase) and moved the switch to the solar side. If anyone has a link/suggestion that would be great.
                          Drew lines for 12V to RV panel and added a switch there.
                          I don't think the battery switch I selected is up to par based on amps. Going to have to update it (have not purchased yet).

                          I am still deciding on whether to ground each device to negative and negative to frame. Appears it is not necessary, but is an additional safety measure.

                          Current challenges/questions:
                          howson
                          I saw your post on: https://gdrvowners.com/forum/operati...erter-chargers and also saw 6/2 and 6/3 used in your wiring presentation. Note: I do not have SATS.

                          EMS came in, planning on mounting in pass through next to multiplus. I will need to run a cable from my breaker box to the pass through storage and another cable back to the breaker box. Trying to figure out if I need to purchase 10 AWG or 8 AWG or 6 AWG? It seems that 10 AWG copper would probably do the job on a 30 amp rig? I prefer to over build...would love for you to weigh in. Not sure if there is a place on the frame I need to connect the positive terminal to (not the frame obviously), but it may be close to a 30' cable run. Distance = loss. I have seen an AMSolar diagram where they used 6/3 to the subpanel. Does it need to be x/3 instead of x/2? Do both runs to and from need to be x/3? (x being AWG)
                          Attached Files
                          2020 Imagine 2400BH
                          2017 Ford F350 Platinum FX4/4x4 SuperCrew 6.7L V8 Diesel 9' Bed SRW, Leveled + Airbags

                          Our Mods

                          Comment


                          • #58
                            This is the 120c/b AMSolar sent when I bought their kit https://amsolar.com/rv-inverter-acce.../brkr-dc-brkr:

                            Click image for larger version

Name:	breaker.JPG
Views:	815
Size:	92.1 KB
ID:	21673

                            For your AC gauge wire question, what I'd do is check the OEM wiring from the outside connection to the circuit breaker panel (main input wires). What gauge are they? That's the minimum I'd use for the circuit, but then verify against the distance charts. With 120v there's less loss over distance than with the 12v side.

                            For the output wires on the MPPT--use the largest gauge, highest-quality stranded wire you can afford (and the MPPT will accept). I'm likely repeating myself at this point, but if you watched Will Prowse's videos there's a lot of potential for system loss from solar-to-battery with small gauge wires or poor connectors. My system (as you probably already know from the drawing) uses 4ga.

                            Don't worry about the fuse size for the Smartshunt--it will come with the unit and likely will be specified in the manual.

                            Not sure I understand why 6/2 is from EMS > inverter and 6/3 from inverter > panel?

                            At this early stage what I did was separate the DC, AC and comm wires in separate drawings. This is easy in Photoshop (or Gimp, which is free) by using layers. Easy to get lost with all the wires crossing each other. Would also help if the DC bus bars were shown.

                            Finally, the DC trailer side isn't complete. The output going to the circuit breaker panel is shown, but what about the OEM DC systems powered prior to the panel (wiring is already in camper)? These include the emergency brake actuator, propane detector, front jack, etc.

                            Forum moderators are not GD employees--we are volunteers and owners presumably just like yourself. Unless specifically mentioned otherwise, we have nothing to gain should you choose to purchase a product or engage a service we discuss on this forum.

                            2017 Ford F-350 DRW, '19 315RLTSPlus

                            Comment


                            • #59
                              For the larger MPPT with 85A continuous amps rating, I've seen recommend to multiply the 85A by 1.56 (125% continuous duty + 125% to avoid false trips.)
                              https://community.victronenergy.com/...re-sizing.html
                              187F CBs - Powerwerx https://powerwerx.com/eaton-187f-wat...-surface-mount

                              I've wondered about the RV's 30A 120VAC service being used with a 3000W Multiplus that has the PowerAssist that could send additional amps to the WFCO panel if needed and/or configured that way.
                              Would it need the 10 Awg wire upsized from the Multiplus AC Out to the WFCO panel, and would the 30A Main CB in the panel need to be upsized.
                              If that were done, then putting a 30A CB after the EMS would protect the 10 Awg wiring from the 30A inlet to the AC In on the Multiplus.
                              Gene and Kim
                              2015 Grand Design Reflection 317RST
                              2017 RAM 3500 CC, LB, 4x2, 6.7L CTD

                              Comment


                              • #60
                                As always - thanks howson and gbkims - your posts are very helpful to me. I cannot tell you how much I appreciate it.

                                Originally posted by gbkims View Post
                                For the larger MPPT with 85A continuous amps rating, I've seen recommend to multiply the 85A by 1.56 (125% continuous duty + 125% to avoid false trips.)
                                https://community.victronenergy.com/...re-sizing.html
                                187F CBs - Powerwerx https://powerwerx.com/eaton-187f-wat...-surface-mount
                                Thanks, I will take a closer look at that when I wire up the solar controller. Also, thanks for the link.

                                Originally posted by gbkims View Post
                                I've wondered about the RV's 30A 120VAC service being used with a 3000W Multiplus that has the PowerAssist that could send additional amps to the WFCO panel if needed and/or configured that way.
                                Would it need the 10 Awg wire upsized from the Multiplus AC Out to the WFCO panel, and would the 30A Main CB in the panel need to be upsized.
                                If that were done, then putting a 30A CB after the EMS would protect the 10 Awg wiring from the 30A inlet to the AC In on the Multiplus.
                                That's actually a pretty good idea. I hadn't thought about up sizing the CB to 40amp. But, your right, a 30 amp breaker after the EMS would protect the 10 AWG wiring. I did confirm it is 10 AWG today. The Multiplus can support up to 120 amp out....which I will never be near.

                                I am considering running 8 AWG from the existing CB location to the pass through and then 8 AWG back. Maybe this is over kill (bypassing CB and taking it to pass through where EMS, multiplus, etc will all be) but it is cheaper than buying a smaller spool of 10 and smaller spool of 8.

                                I also discovered tonight a point of confusion. My CB panel is labeled such that some labels clearly take up 2 spots on the labeling. I could not for the life of me figure out why and tonight I looked closer and saw that the number of labels should and does = the number of breakers. Some labels are just 2x the size? Dumb, but it threw me off a bit (that's what happens when you look at it tired!)

                                Originally posted by howson View Post
                                For the output wires on the MPPT--use the largest gauge, highest-quality stranded wire you can afford (and the MPPT will accept). I'm likely repeating myself at this point, but if you watched Will Prowse's videos there's a lot of potential for system loss from solar-to-battery with small gauge wires or poor connectors. My system (as you probably already know from the drawing) uses 4ga.
                                Thanks - will find out what the max is and probably go with that. I already have purchased 2/0 and 4/0 cable. But, I will look and post.

                                Originally posted by howson View Post
                                Not sure I understand why 6/2 is from EMS > inverter and 6/3 from inverter > panel?
                                This is me over doing it. I think I am going to drop this back to 10/2 from the CB panel (which I am bypassing) to the EMS (in the pass through) and then I will run a 2nd line of 8/2 back to the CB. I don't see any reason for 8/3. 8/2 should be fine.

                                Originally posted by howson View Post
                                Finally, the DC trailer side isn't complete. The output going to the circuit breaker panel is shown, but what about the OEM DC systems powered prior to the panel (wiring is already in camper)? These include the emergency brake actuator, propane detector, front jack, etc.
                                Yeah, I know...I think this is mostly under the trailer on the frame? I may try to draw this out...but I have some figuring out as I go to do I am afraid.

                                It's going to get fun real quick. Some shipments from battleborn arrive next week....going to try to start getting a lot of work done very soon.
                                2020 Imagine 2400BH
                                2017 Ford F350 Platinum FX4/4x4 SuperCrew 6.7L V8 Diesel 9' Bed SRW, Leveled + Airbags

                                Our Mods

                                Comment

                                Working...
                                X