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  • #31
    Originally posted by MidwestCamper View Post
    My hopes are for lithium charger manufactures to make a temp compensated charger which lithium batteries should have. AIMs makes a temp compensated charger but I didn't like that the cooling fan was on all the time, so I returned it. The charge on lithium batteries should begin to taper down the current as the temperature drops to around 45F. To help with this, a 0.5C charge will keep you in the reasonable range but below 40F will be too high. Look at the charge curve on Trojans lithium batteries for temperature. They are the only ones that I've seen that actually puts out accurate information on charge versus temperature.

    Jim
    I think there is an interview of the Battlborn CEO (done by Wll Prose) where he discusses this among other things. Not saying a solution was given per say....but I don't think he was concerned about temperatures until they became extreme. I can't remember which charger you are looking at.....do you not like the Quatro or Multiplus line from Victron? They also have the Phoenix line that is a charger only (not an inverter).

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ywn-vBjKblI&t=945s


    Originally posted by bellis View Post
    I ended up calling and emailing Battleborn last week. Waiting on a response from them.
    They mentioned it may be Monday before they get a tech to get back to me...something about a sale.

    I was camping this weekend and just returned the camper to it's spot. I left the batteries and solar on. Will leave that in place for a while and then will shut it off and see if it repeats....but hopefully will hear from BB first and maybe change a setting.
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    • #32
      Originally posted by bellis View Post

      I think there is an interview of the Battlborn CEO (done by Wll Prose) where he discusses this among other things. Not saying a solution was given per say....but I don't think he was concerned about temperatures until they became extreme. I can't remember which charger you are looking at.....do you not like the Quatro or Multiplus line from Victron? They also have the Phoenix line that is a charger only (not an inverter).

      https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ywn-vBjKblI&t=945s




      They mentioned it may be Monday before they get a tech to get back to me...something about a sale.

      I was camping this weekend and just returned the camper to it's spot. I left the batteries and solar on. Will leave that in place for a while and then will shut it off and see if it repeats....but hopefully will hear from BB first and maybe change a setting.
      I worked in automotive on hybrids and we looked very closely at temperature. I think for the most part, drop in manufacturers want to sell batteries and not turn off customers too much. But if you want your batteries to have good longevity, you will store at 50% SOC and look carefully in how they are being charged. For us in mostly warmer conditions, 0.5C will get us through. For winter campers, a charge profile for cold weather is needed IMO. Or just keep them warm.

      Jim

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      • #33
        Originally posted by MidwestCamper View Post

        I worked in automotive on hybrids and we looked very closely at temperature. I think for the most part, drop in manufacturers want to sell batteries and not turn off customers too much. But if you want your batteries to have good longevity, you will store at 50% SOC and look carefully in how they are being charged. For us in mostly warmer conditions, 0.5C will get us through. For winter campers, a charge profile for cold weather is needed IMO. Or just keep them warm.

        Jim
        I haven't had to worry about the cold so far. If you have BB's - they say their batteries should not be stored at 50%. They can be, but they would recommend a full charge for storage is what I gather.

        Did you watch the video as it relates to temperature? In my case I have not been using them in those temperatures...but the batteries and inverter etc are in the same location....all the gear is in the insulated passthrough....this helps me keep them warmer.
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        • #34
          Originally posted by bellis View Post

          I haven't had to worry about the cold so far. If you have BB's - they say their batteries should not be stored at 50%. They can be, but they would recommend a full charge for storage is what I gather.

          Did you watch the video as it relates to temperature? In my case I have not been using them in those temperatures...but the batteries and inverter etc are in the same location....all the gear is in the insulated passthrough....this helps me keep them warmer.
          I have watched the videos and can state with confidence that they are wrong in many cases. However listen carefully about charging at 1C at low temperatures. The low temperature cutoff will not save you in all cases so interaction is critical in how to charge at low temps.
          These battery companies want to make the transformation to lithium as easy as possible and will make statements like storing at 100% or that the temperature compensation will allow full charging to no charging within one degree. Or its ok to use the standard chargers that come with the rigs, or you can use the entire range of the battery for use. If you want your battery longevity to be maximized, you will ignore these statements.

          I've worked with many different battery technologies over the years and if what I am writing does not carry any weight, here is a video from Will who understands how to maximize battery life.



          Jim
          Last edited by howson; 06-29-2021, 07:51 AM. Reason: Embedded video...

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          • #35
            Originally posted by MidwestCamper View Post

            I have watched the videos and can state with confidence that they are wrong in many cases. However listen carefully about charging at 1C at low temperatures. The low temperature cutoff will not save you in all cases so interaction is critical in how to charge at low temps.
            These battery companies want to make the transformation to lithium as easy as possible and will make statements like storing at 100% or that the temperature compensation will allow full charging to no charging within one degree. Or its ok to use the standard chargers that come with the rigs, or you can use the entire range of the battery for use. If you want your battery longevity to be maximized, you will ignore these statements.

            I've worked with many different battery technologies over the years and if what I am writing does not carry any weight, here is a video from Will who understands how to maximize battery life.



            Jim
            Thanks Jim...very interesting.

            I guess the problem I have with some of these statements and even the video is it is kinda like the mileage "guarantee" you get when you buy a new set of tires. They will last x miles when you drive on perfect and flat roads with no curves and you rotate your tires at exactly x miles....and a whole bunch of other requirements that never happen in the real world. Please don't take that comment personally...I value your comments.

            For example...in the above video....it talks about battery storage for 1 year! My batteries will never be stored for one year without use. I may "store" it for a week or two and I am back out using it for at least 7 months out of the year. For that matter....even when I am not camping....I am frequently over there and may be using a little bit as I go....right now....I have my batteries on and solar on to collect some data and troubleshoot this SOC reporting issue. Not to mention the table from battery university shows the battery degradation at various temperatures....for most of us....our batteries are not in temperature controlled environments where it will be exactly x. My average yearly temperature is probably around 20-21 C. (70 degrees F). But, batteries are not stored in a constant climate controlled location....my location is better than some as it is inside the insulated rig.

            Also - how practical is it to store at 50%? In many cases for me, this would mean that upon returning from a trip.....I would have to run my batteries down 50% because they are going to be close to a full charge from solar (even though my fridge is running on AC) when I arrive. And per the above - does it even matter if I am not storing for anywhere near a year? Wouldn't the charge cycles (that's what BB's 10 year warranty is based on) increase significantly if I tried to do this? IE I would run the batteries down on purpose....then charge back up every time I stored it for a week or so and then prepped for the next trip? More charge cycles = less life.

            All batteries have degradation....everything does due to the 2nd law of thermodynamics. Nothing in the universe is getting better unfortunately....it's all winding down or devolving.

            How are you balancing usage and storage? Which battery are you using? Do you store at 40-50% if you are back out in a week or two? What temperatures are you dealing with? Where are your batteries located in the 2600RB?
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            • #36
              I have updated firmware some since then....still waiting on an answer from battleborn...usually their support is better than this.
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              • #37
                bellis My rig is wired where I can choose to charge my lithium while underway (or not) and I can also power the rig from the pedestal with the battery disconnected. So most of the summer, my battery is used primarily during travel to power the refrigerator and/or emergency brake circuit. I do not stress that my battery is always at 50% but I try to keep them from 100% or at very low percentages. This is where a lithium battery will deteriorate faster than keeping it at its midpoint. Lead acid batteries last longer by keeping them fully charged, so they are not the same.
                To run a test, I stored my battery (an AIMS 100ah) all winter where it lost 4% over 7 months. It is stored inside the passthrough and I monitored it with the victron app. In the future, I will store it inside my garage that will be above freezing conditions where I will store it at 50% SOC and monitor my voltage over the winter months.
                I also camp primarily in warm conditions but enjoy the cooler conditions in early spring and late fall. These temperatures while the rig is being heated keeps the batteries warm and far from freezing conditions. If I were winter camping, I would at a minimum keep them in the pass-through with heating pads under them.

                In the auto industry which uses batteries of a different chemical makeup we would only allow so much draw from a cold pack that during operation would provide warming. We would also heat the batteries under some conditions. Batteries were also cooled during high heating conditions. We would never allow a pack to run down below 20% back then and the pack while looking like it was charged to 100% was never there in reality. This was done to ensure the pack would perform for an 8-10 year period under the worse possible conditions. So these techniques can be applied to our battery chemistry by keeping them at temperatures that we ourselves find comfortable and running them in a range of about 20% - 80% SOC and storing at 50% SOC (not possible in auto). Some may find this undoable and will run the packs at full range and will charge them in cold conditions at high current or will run them at high loads in high temperatures. This is a choice that each of us will independently make.

                Jim

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                • #38
                  Well I got a hold of Battleborn....they recommend I increase the shunt's charged voltage from 14.2 to 14.4 (I figured this)...I think AMSolar recommends 14.2

                  But, the smoking gun maybe the slider for "Battery Starts synchronized". I had this off and misunderstood what it did. I was concerned that this on would cause the reporting issue by saying the batteries were 100% when turned on....apparently it is the opposite and I have that wrong.

                  So...need to get the 2 settings changed and see if that resolves. Have not had the issue since....but I have also largely left it on since too.
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                  • #39
                    Now that these changes have been made....I am not sure my solar is charging much more than to 80% before it flips to float....
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                    • #40
                      So - it has happened again....this time with the rig on the entire time!

                      I saw that the solar was in float and wasn't really doing anything....despite the batteries showing ~70%. So....I started really using it....hit the AC etc. I took it down to "reported" 0% and it kept on trucking! I think when it reported 72.2% it was really high 90% or even 100%. I then charged it up....it stayed 0% for a long time even with the generator running....when it got to absorption for a while...it finally hit 100%.

                      Maybe it is time to reach out to Battleborn again....any suggestions?

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                      • #41
                        Originally posted by bellis View Post
                        ....any suggestions?
                        Did you change the Charged Detection time as previously suggested in post 17 or reconsider the wiring as mentioned in post #7? If the controller's idea of "100%" gets off sync due to either of these reasons, a manual reset to 100% (through the VictronConnect app) is required to get the percentage aligned.

                        Remember--your Battle Born batteries don't give a hoot what the shunt thinks is left in them. The BB's BMS knows what is left. The unloaded voltage reading from the battery bank will give you some idea of the "real" percentage left in the battery, though it is harder to tell given that lithium's do not change their voltage levels as much as wet cell batteries. Not sure if this chart is 100% correct, but it does give you some point of reference.

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                        Other than that...I've already provided every suggestion I can think of. At your discretion try them or hopefully someone else with more knowledge (or BB) can give you an alternative.
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                        • #42
                          Originally posted by bellis View Post
                          So - it has happened again....this time with the rig on the entire time!

                          I saw that the solar was in float and wasn't really doing anything....despite the batteries showing ~70%. So....I started really using it....hit the AC etc. I took it down to "reported" 0% and it kept on trucking! I think when it reported 72.2% it was really high 90% or even 100%. I then charged it up....it stayed 0% for a long time even with the generator running....when it got to absorption for a while...it finally hit 100%.

                          Maybe it is time to reach out to Battleborn again....any suggestions?

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                          I would forget about the SoC% until the settings are configured properly and the system goes through a couple of full charge cycles (bulk -> absorption -> float)

                          I would start with Shunt settings similar to this, (adjust battery capacity to meet your system)
                          Shunt Settings

                          Then I would adjust the MPPT's settings to something similar to this:
                          12v MPPT settings

                          These would be where we'd 'start' and monitor for a couple of charge cycles before 'adjusting' if needed.

                          If you have an inverter, you'd want to ensure that the Absorption and float voltages were the same as the MPPT as well (14.4, and 13.6)

                          Last edited by Natebert; 08-03-2021, 02:30 PM.

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                          • #43
                            In followup, if these settings aren't working with good accuracy as shown above, I'd want to double-check that the shunt is connected properly, the connections are good/adequate (including any circuit protection like fuses and circuit breakers), and that the batteries health is good.

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                            • #44
                              Originally posted by Natebert View Post
                              In followup, if these settings aren't working with good accuracy as shown above, I'd want to double-check that the shunt is connected properly, the connections are good/adequate (including any circuit protection like fuses and circuit breakers), and that the batteries health is good.
                              I am pretty confident it is connected correctly. Thanks for the help. Just to make sure I did not miss anything....Settings are now as follows:



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                              • #45
                                Screenshot limit per post hit....here is the Shunt and MPPT Battery page.

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