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  • MultiPlus test lead to Battery corundum - failure - I am stumped

    Ok I did an inverter teat with our new coffee pot. Remember I had issues before but we thought it was the inverter settings - well maybe the setting weren't the issue.

    During the 10-15 minute test t watched my Touch 50 screen while doing this. Pot was pulling 950 - 975 watts. Whats amazing is the solar panels were putting out about 225W during this time. Battery voltage at start (Inverter on, coffee pot off) was 13.6. When I turned on the coffee pot it immediately dropped to 12.6 - within 8 minutes it was 11.8 and inverter kicked off. 11.8 is the threshold I set. Battery voltage quickly recovered back to 12.6 and the inverter turned on and ran for 2 minutes to 11.8 again. So I turned everything off and voltage was 12.2. Touch 50 was also showing 98% soc too. I also checked voltage with my meter and everything was good.

    Multplus passed, battery bank fail !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

    So I go and check the batterys. I am running 4 deep cycle Crown CR260 6V in a series parallel set up - this should give me 520AH - 250 usable.
    I checked all the battery cells with my battery hydrometer and all cells read 1265 or better - this surprised me and I went and read what my Touch 50 was saying - 13.5V. 100% soc. The solar panels were putting out about 120 watts while I was unhooking the battery box vent and getting ready for testing )about 15-20 minutes. Water levels were good to, although I did top them off. All cable connections are good too.

    So I am stumped All battery cells say good, but they are loosing voltage fast. Battery are wired together with 2/0 and tied to the main multiplus input with 4/0

    I guess they are failing under load, but how do I prove that? I know the battery folks can load test if I bring the batterys in. However I don't want to hook up to drag the trailer into town.

    Is there a load tester that I can get that can be used with batterys in the trailer?

    Thanks - is there anything else to check?

    Keith
    2018 Reflection 150 Series 220RK 5th whee, Star White 2022 F350 King Ranch CC Long bed (HAL) (CCC 4062lbs), B&W 25K OEM Companion,. SteadyFast system, Trailer reverse lights, rear receiver spare tire holder, storage tube, sumo springs, Victron MultiPlus 12/120/3000, Solar, Custom 6K axles upgrade, and other modifications.

  • #2
    Keith,

    This video shows a guy testing 6V deep cycle batteries. He also provides an Amazon link for a 6V/12V load tester.


    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jAC5CSt-e2U

    Jim
    Jim and Ginnie
    2024 Solitude 310GK
    GDRV Technical Forum Moderator
    GDRV Rally Support Coordinator

    Comment


    • #3
      Originally posted by TucsonJim View Post
      Keith,

      This video shows a guy testing 6V deep cycle batteries. He also provides an Amazon link for a 6V/12V load tester.


      https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jAC5CSt-e2U

      Jim
      Thanks Jim
      The tester he used is a professional model,
      https://www.autometer.com/sb-3-500-a..._BwE&gclsr c=aw.ds
      but he links a 130 amp version
      https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B0...abcd5b8367871e
      there is a digital version too
      https://www.amazon.com/OTC-3182-130-...e%2C172&sr=1-1

      I know zero on how theses things work. Something about load over time and not having voltage drop which I have already seen. My batterys are set up as 2 seperate 12V banks. I'm guessing I must have at least two bad batterys - one in each bank

      I have sent an email off to Crown Battery to see what they say

      Thanks again
      Keith
      2018 Reflection 150 Series 220RK 5th whee, Star White 2022 F350 King Ranch CC Long bed (HAL) (CCC 4062lbs), B&W 25K OEM Companion,. SteadyFast system, Trailer reverse lights, rear receiver spare tire holder, storage tube, sumo springs, Victron MultiPlus 12/120/3000, Solar, Custom 6K axles upgrade, and other modifications.

      Comment


      • #4
        Keith,

        So if solar wasn't providing 225W, the coffee pot would be pulling about 80A from the batteries. https://www.rapidtables.com/convert/...tt-to-amp.html
        The CR-260 power sheet has Discharge Capacity 75A, 150 minutes.
        1.265 S.G. appears to be above 90%

        I'd try isolating each parallel bank after they are charged and run coffee pot from one bank at a time and see if each bank does the same thing.

        The Trojan FLAs have a user guide with some additional info.
        https://www.trojanbattery.com/pdf/Tr...UsersGuide.pdf
        3.7. Connecting Batteries in Banks
        Figure 6 Recommended Deep-Cycle Flooded/Wet Charging Profle
        Table 7 FLOODED/WET STATE OF CHARGE AS A FUNCTION OF SPECIFIC GRAVITY AND OPEN-CIRCUIT VOLTAGE
        Gene and Kim
        2015 Grand Design Reflection 317RST
        2017 RAM 3500 CC, LB, 4x2, 6.7L CTD

        Comment


        • #5
          Originally posted by gbkims View Post
          Keith,

          So if solar wasn't providing 225W, the coffee pot would be pulling about 80A from the batteries. https://www.rapidtables.com/convert/...tt-to-amp.html
          The CR-260 power sheet has Discharge Capacity 75A, 150 minutes.
          1.265 S.G. appears to be above 90%

          I'd try isolating each parallel bank after they are charged and run coffee pot from one bank at a time and see if each bank does the same thing.

          The Trojan FLAs have a user guide with some additional info.
          https://www.trojanbattery.com/pdf/Tr...UsersGuide.pdf
          3.7. Connecting Batteries in Banks
          Figure 6 Recommended Deep-Cycle Flooded/Wet Charging Profle
          Table 7 FLOODED/WET STATE OF CHARGE AS A FUNCTION OF SPECIFIC GRAVITY AND OPEN-CIRCUIT VOLTAGE
          Thanks Gene
          As each bank is switched I can run that test. In series two of the crown batterys should be capable of 150A 150 minutes correct? The bank of 4 (2 sets in parallel) would be 150A for 300 minutes, or do I have that backwards.
          Ill run the test tomorrow. This is the coffee maker https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B0...?ie=UTF8&psc=1
          Ill pull the power information off of it in the morning.

          On edit
          BTW Renogy is having a sale on thier 200AH for $1045 each and there are additional 10% off coupons floating around so 400AH is less that 2K Are they any good? Will Prowse did a tear down on the 100 ah version and like it https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aahHWaV6Zdk
          Just thought I would mention it - a fail safe option for spring.
          Last edited by Yoda; 10-30-2021, 11:53 PM.
          2018 Reflection 150 Series 220RK 5th whee, Star White 2022 F350 King Ranch CC Long bed (HAL) (CCC 4062lbs), B&W 25K OEM Companion,. SteadyFast system, Trailer reverse lights, rear receiver spare tire holder, storage tube, sumo springs, Victron MultiPlus 12/120/3000, Solar, Custom 6K axles upgrade, and other modifications.

          Comment


          • #6
            Originally posted by Yoda View Post

            Thanks Gene
            As each bank is switched I can run that test. In series two of the crown batterys should be capable of 150A 150 minutes correct? The bank of 4 (2 sets in parallel) would be 150A for 300 minutes, or do I have that backwards.
            The Amps don't add in series connected batteries, it's the volts that add. So the 75A discharge capacity for 150 minutes still applies to one 12V bank.
            Gene and Kim
            2015 Grand Design Reflection 317RST
            2017 RAM 3500 CC, LB, 4x2, 6.7L CTD

            Comment


            • #7
              Yoda

              According to the battery's spec sheet (attached below), a fully charged cell has a specific gravity (SP) of 1.275. A fully discharged cell is 1.125. Ignoring the Touch 50 for a moment, what was the SP when the coffee pot was turned off (before recharging)? Consider checking all the cells for one that has a SP difference from all the others. (As you know the SP will give you a more accurate indicator of the battery's SoC than the Touch 50.)

              I suggest turning off the solar while testing your batteries--too confusing with that variable in the circuit.

              The Crown has a specific charging profile (outlined in the PDF)--are you sure the Multiplus is programmed correctly? Note the equalization requirement every 7 days.

              Assuming a 50% Depth of Discharge (DoD), each cell's specific gravity should convert to ~1.94 volts, so 1.94 x 3 = 5.82v per battery. Two batteries in series, the assumption is 5.82 x 2 = 11.64v at 50% SoC (or DoD, whichever term is preferred).

              Click image for larger version

Name:	DoD.JPG
Views:	225
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ID:	69323

              Since the coffee pot was pulling 975 watts, that's 8.125 amps of 120vAC. Converting (ignoring losses) to DC that's approximately 81.25 amps getting pulled from the battery bank. If I did the math right (since you have two series-pair sets wired in parallel), that should provide a little over 300 minutes to full discharge. (The PDF states 150 minutes at 75aH.) The PDF's figure is likely to 100% DoD, so cutting that figure in half means about 75 minutes of run time at an 81.25 aH rate.

              Isn't the "standing" voltage the indicator of the SoC? When you write, "...it immediately recovered to 12.6..." could that mean the battery really hadn't discharged to the level you think? I realize you ran the pot again and the battery dropped to 12.2 with no load. That's still well above the 11.64v that I think represents 50% DoD.

              Again--suggest isolating the solar panels when testing to remove that variable.

              Howard

              Attached Files
              Forum moderators are not GD employees--we are volunteers and owners presumably just like yourself. Unless specifically mentioned otherwise, we have nothing to gain should you choose to purchase a product or engage a service we discuss on this forum.

              2017 Ford F-350 DRW, '19 315RLTSPlus

              Comment


              • #8
                Originally posted by howson View Post
                Yoda

                According to the battery's spec sheet (attached below), a fully charged cell has a specific gravity (SP) of 1.275. A fully discharged cell is 1.125. Ignoring the Touch 50 for a moment, what was the SP when the coffee pot was turned off (before recharging)? Consider checking all the cells for one that has a SP difference from all the others. (As you know the SP will give you a more accurate indicator of the battery's SoC than the Touch 50.)

                I suggest turning off the solar while testing your batteries--too confusing with that variable in the circuit.

                The Crown has a specific charging profile (outlined in the PDF)--are you sure the Multiplus is programmed correctly? Note the equalization requirement every 7 days.

                Assuming a 50% Depth of Discharge (DoD), each cell's specific gravity should convert to ~1.94 volts, so 1.94 x 3 = 5.82v per battery. Two batteries in series, the assumption is 5.82 x 2 = 11.64v at 50% SoC (or DoD, whichever term is preferred).

                Click image for larger version  Name:	DoD.JPG Views:	0 Size:	102.9 KB ID:	69323

                Since the coffee pot was pulling 975 watts, that's 8.125 amps of 120vAC. Converting (ignoring losses) to DC that's approximately 81.25 amps getting pulled from the battery bank. If I did the math right (since you have two series-pair sets wired in parallel), that should provide a little over 300 minutes to full discharge. (The PDF states 150 minutes at 75aH.) The PDF's figure is likely to 100% DoD, so cutting that figure in half means about 75 minutes of run time at an 81.25 aH rate.

                Isn't the "standing" voltage the indicator of the SoC? When you write, "...it immediately recovered to 12.6..." could that mean the battery really hadn't discharged to the level you think? I realize you ran the pot again and the battery dropped to 12.2 with no load. That's still well above the 11.64v that I think represents 50% DoD.

                Again--suggest isolating the solar panels when testing to remove that variable.

                Howard
                Thanks Howard
                As I have the disconnect switches before the MPPT's for the solar that should be easy. I also have breakers between the MPPT's and the batterys. Is the battery side disconnected first and then the panels? Or the other way panels then battery. I know the sequence was posted before to turn on said to connect batterys first. But I had better double check

                Today I will do the specific gravity check again before running the test and have solar off. Ill also write down the voltages - maybe try and get a picture of the touch 50 and isolate each bank. Ill also keep better track of time.

                Thanks
                Keith

                On edit I think I have the sequence. From my own install to turn on, the battery to the MPPT is first power up, then the solar panels to the MPPT.

                SO Off is turn Panel circuit breakers to MPPT to off, then turn off battery power to MPPT, or can I leave that on and just disconnect the panels?
                Last edited by Yoda; 10-31-2021, 10:08 AM.
                2018 Reflection 150 Series 220RK 5th whee, Star White 2022 F350 King Ranch CC Long bed (HAL) (CCC 4062lbs), B&W 25K OEM Companion,. SteadyFast system, Trailer reverse lights, rear receiver spare tire holder, storage tube, sumo springs, Victron MultiPlus 12/120/3000, Solar, Custom 6K axles upgrade, and other modifications.

                Comment


                • #9
                  Yoda every setup I know of has this sequence:

                  TURN ON
                  Connect BATTERY > CONTROLLER
                  Connect PANELS > CONTROLLER

                  TURN OFF

                  Disconnect PANELS > CONTROLLER
                  Disconnect CONTROLLER > BATTERIES

                  Look forward to reading what you come up with after retesting.
                  Forum moderators are not GD employees--we are volunteers and owners presumably just like yourself. Unless specifically mentioned otherwise, we have nothing to gain should you choose to purchase a product or engage a service we discuss on this forum.

                  2017 Ford F-350 DRW, '19 315RLTSPlus

                  Comment


                  • #10
                    Thanks Howard
                    I learned one thing already - don't hide disconnect switched behind the battery box.
                    2018 Reflection 150 Series 220RK 5th whee, Star White 2022 F350 King Ranch CC Long bed (HAL) (CCC 4062lbs), B&W 25K OEM Companion,. SteadyFast system, Trailer reverse lights, rear receiver spare tire holder, storage tube, sumo springs, Victron MultiPlus 12/120/3000, Solar, Custom 6K axles upgrade, and other modifications.

                    Comment


                    • #11
                      howson Well its not looking good. Battery bank showed 13,6 this morning - nominal solar input - 5W float, Disconnect solar and checked voltage settled at 12.9V with 1 amp draw, I then went and checked specific gravity

                      Battery 3 ..........................Battery 1
                      1275 ................................1265
                      1265 ................................1265
                      1260 ................................1265

                      Battery 4 ..........................Battery 2
                      1250 ................................1260
                      1260 ................................1260
                      1265 ................................1265

                      I disconnected one set (battery bank 3&4) went inside and got ready for test
                      Inverter off 12.8 volts Inverter on 12.7
                      Coffee pot on - 5 seconds 11.65 auto shut down. I let it auto reset voltage climbed to12.66 - load - immediate off at 11.6V

                      So went out and disconnected battery bank 1&2 and went to reconnect bank 3&4 - found disconnect switch for 3 &4 not working - I had forced it to disconnect earlier. I was lucky that I had extra long 4/0 feeds so I was able to re wire to have 3&4 on with 1&2 off.

                      Went inside voltage 12.97. Turned inverter on 12.9 the only thing turning on with the inverter on both test was the microwave display. It beeps when power comes on so that was a good signal inverter was working. Turned coffee pot on 3 seconds 11.8 and shutdown. Let is auto reset voltage back to 12.6 . inverter on on and instant shut down voltage hit 11.7

                      So both banks failed

                      I guess my only choice now is to pull the batterys and have them professionally tested. With them out I can fix the switch - might just remove and use disconnecting the cables from the batterys as is is easier to do.

                      Needless to say I am really bummed and kicking myself for not going Lithium. Im guessing the rough roads to Georgia and back may have damaged them.

                      Ill give Crown Battery a call in the morning - should be fully covered, but no close dealers - thinking of just getting a refund if possible and get Lithium next spring or Black Friday Its time to put the trailer away for winter anyway

                      With Renogy having a sale on thier 200AH for $1045 it can only get better - but I don't want them to winter over so best get in spring - hopefully prices will drop more. Then there is SOK that will liked? Hmmmmm more research.


                      More later

                      Last edited by Yoda; 10-31-2021, 09:37 PM.
                      2018 Reflection 150 Series 220RK 5th whee, Star White 2022 F350 King Ranch CC Long bed (HAL) (CCC 4062lbs), B&W 25K OEM Companion,. SteadyFast system, Trailer reverse lights, rear receiver spare tire holder, storage tube, sumo springs, Victron MultiPlus 12/120/3000, Solar, Custom 6K axles upgrade, and other modifications.

                      Comment


                      • #12
                        Originally posted by Yoda View Post
                        howson Well its not looking good. Battery bank showed 13,6 this morning - nominal solar input - 5W float, Disconnect solar and checked voltage settled at 12.9V with 1 amp draw, I then went and checked specific gravity

                        Battery 3 ..........................Battery 1
                        1275 ................................1265
                        1265 ................................1265
                        1260 ................................1265

                        Battery 4 ..........................Battery 2
                        1250 ................................1260
                        1260 ................................1260
                        1265 ................................1265

                        I disconnected one set (battery bank 3&4) went inside and got ready for test
                        Inverter off 12.8 volts Inverter on 12.7
                        Coffee pot on - 5 seconds 11.65 auto shut down. I let it auto reset voltage climbed to12.66 - load - immediate off at 11.6V

                        So went out and disconnected battery bank 1&2 and went to reconnect bank 3&4 - found disconnect switch for 3 &4 not working - I had forced it to disconnect earlier. I was lucky that I had extra long 4/0 feeds so I was able to re wire to have 3&4 on with 1&2 off.

                        Went inside voltage 12.97. Turned inverter on 12.9 the only thing turning on with the inverter on both test was the microwave display. It beeps when power comes on so that was a good signal inverter was working. Turned coffee pot on 3 seconds 11.8 and shutdown. Let is auto reset voltage back to 12.6 . inverter on on and instant shut down voltage hit 11.7

                        So both banks failed

                        I guess my only choice now is to pull the batterys and have them professionally tested. With them out I can fix the switch - might just remove and use disconnecting the cables from the batterys as is is easier to do.

                        Needless to say I am really bummed and kicking myself for not going Lithium. Im guessing the rough roads to Georgia and back may have damaged them.

                        Ill give Crown Battery a call in the morning - should be fully covered, but no close dealers - thinking of just getting a refund if possible and get Lithium next spring or Black Friday Its time to put the trailer away for winter anyway

                        With Renogy having a sale on thier 200AH for $1045 it can only get better - but I don't want them to winter over so best get in spring - hopefully prices will drop more. Then there is SOK that will liked? Hmmmmm more research.


                        More later
                        I don’t understand why you have the battery shutdown voltage set so high. Voltage does represent state of charge but only at rest, not under load as I understand it. Actually I believe a significant no-load rest period is recommended for an accurate level. Since the voltage pops back up when the load is shut off, sounds like the batteries might be tine. Or maybe I am confused about what you are trying to test.
                        2018 Reflection 303rls
                        MORryde IS, FlexArmor roof
                        Blue Ox Super Ride hitch
                        2017 Ford F350 CCSB SRW

                        Comment


                        • #13
                          Originally posted by wygieman View Post

                          I don’t understand why you have the battery shutdown voltage set so high. Voltage does represent state of charge but only at rest, not under load as I understand it. Actually I believe a significant no-load rest period is recommended for an accurate level. Since the voltage pops back up when the load is shut off, sounds like the batteries might be tine. Or maybe I am confused about what you are trying to test.
                          As theses are flooded batterys 50% SOC is 12.1 volts. From what I know I should not go below 50% soc. I set the inverter shut down to 11.8 to account for some temporary voltage drop. Wit a 520AH bank I should be able to run 15 minutes at an 80 amp load - but no luck

                          Crown customer service is helping right now - wanted a few photos and date codes.

                          Any other thoughts?

                          Thanks
                          Keith
                          2018 Reflection 150 Series 220RK 5th whee, Star White 2022 F350 King Ranch CC Long bed (HAL) (CCC 4062lbs), B&W 25K OEM Companion,. SteadyFast system, Trailer reverse lights, rear receiver spare tire holder, storage tube, sumo springs, Victron MultiPlus 12/120/3000, Solar, Custom 6K axles upgrade, and other modifications.

                          Comment


                          • #14
                            wygieman -- your point is well made, but to my knowledge an inverter (or battery monitor) doesn't dynamically lower the cutoff due to a load. A voltage level is what it is.

                            That's why I was hoping Yoda would take SG measurements after the load test and a rest period. That reading will reveal the true status of the batteries (based on what I think I currently understand about lead acid batteries). If the SG shows the batteries have indeed dropped a significant portion of their charge after a short use...then Keith can be sure the batteries are not capable of their original potential.
                            Forum moderators are not GD employees--we are volunteers and owners presumably just like yourself. Unless specifically mentioned otherwise, we have nothing to gain should you choose to purchase a product or engage a service we discuss on this forum.

                            2017 Ford F-350 DRW, '19 315RLTSPlus

                            Comment


                            • #15
                              Originally posted by howson View Post
                              wygieman -- your point is well made, but to my knowledge an inverter (or battery monitor) doesn't dynamically lower the cutoff due to a load. A voltage level is what it is.

                              That's why I was hoping Yoda would take SG measurements after the load test and a rest period. That reading will reveal the true status of the batteries (based on what I think I currently understand about lead acid batteries). If the SG shows the batteries have indeed dropped a significant portion of their charge after a short use...then Keith can be sure the batteries are not capable of their original potential.
                              Thanks Howard
                              As the inverter is pulling down the voltage and it is bouncing back should I reset the inverter low voltage shut down to say 11.5V. I need to fix the switch then I was going to run an equalization cycle and retest. This time with a before and after specific gravity test. My bad for missing the part of an after specific gravity check. Now to remove the batterys to get at the switch.

                              Thanks Keith
                              2018 Reflection 150 Series 220RK 5th whee, Star White 2022 F350 King Ranch CC Long bed (HAL) (CCC 4062lbs), B&W 25K OEM Companion,. SteadyFast system, Trailer reverse lights, rear receiver spare tire holder, storage tube, sumo springs, Victron MultiPlus 12/120/3000, Solar, Custom 6K axles upgrade, and other modifications.

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