17MKE - Changing batteries from 80A Hr Deep Cycle to 2 x 100 A Hr Lithium

[ncitro]

Yes, it looks like you just disconnect the +/- DC and the hot/neutral/ground AC wires then just slide it out. Not bad at all. No need to remove the entire distribution panel, no need to run new wires or find a place for another component - just replace the old one.

The advantage to going with a new location closer to the batteries is reducing the run length of the DC wires. Voltage drop there can make a big difference in charging efficiency, but it does add to install complexity. That said some of the rigs have the converter and distribution panel in the rear of the rig, and moving it to the front pass through near the batteries can be a big improvement.

[Jack61]

The advantage to going with a new location closer to the batteries is reducing the run length of the DC wires. Voltage drop there can make a big difference in charging efficiency, but it does add to install complexity. That said some of the rigs have the converter and distribution panel in the rear of the rig, and moving it to the front pass through near the batteries can be a big improvement.

After reading here and sending several emails to WFCO who haven't replied. I have been unable to confirm if one of the replacement converters will fit in the WF-8735 power panel. So I'm kind of back to liking the idea of putting a Victron 25A charger in the pass thru storage area and running the charge leads back to the batteries on the tongue.

Along with that, the idea of shortening the run from the charger to the batteries seems to be a desirable approach. Now the questions -

1. My current configuration has two leads (black and red) coming from the battery box on the tongue. I'm assuming they make the run back to the WF-8735 Power Center and then are distributed from there to the 12V devices. There is a battery monitor on the control panel in the kitchen cabinet and also a second smaller display in the passthru storage area near the solar controller. If I install the Victron 25A charger in the passthru storage area and run the two charge leads back to the batteries on the tonge, is there any problem with battery monitors? I've seen some posts about everything being after the shunt and wonder if having the charge leads as a second direct battery connection is a problem?
2. I see from some reviews on the Victron charger that it gets quite hot. Should this be mounted on some sort of heat sink rather then directly to the wall of the pass thru storage area? Is there any risk of fire if say the cloth from a camp chair were to get close to the charger?

I know some rookie questions but I'd like to be sure that I can do this once and not be going the trial and error route.

[ncitro]

After reading here and sending several emails to WFCO who haven't replied. I have been unable to confirm if one of the replacement converters will fit in the WF-8735 power panel. So I'm kind of back to liking the idea of putting a Victron 25A charger in the pass thru storage area and running the charge leads back to the batteries on the tongue.

Along with that, the idea of shortening the run from the charger to the batteries seems to be a desirable approach. Now the questions -

1. My current configuration has two leads (black and red) coming from the battery box on the tongue. I'm assuming they make the run back to the WF-8735 Power Center and then are distributed from there to the 12V devices. There is a battery monitor on the control panel in the kitchen cabinet and also a second smaller display in the passthru storage area near the solar controller. If I install the Victron 25A charger in the passthru storage area and run the two charge leads back to the batteries on the tonge, is there any problem with battery monitors? I've seen some posts about everything being after the shunt and wonder if having the charge leads as a second direct battery connection is a problem?
2. I see from some reviews on the Victron charger that it gets quite hot. Should this be mounted on some sort of heat sink rather then directly to the wall of the pass thru storage area? Is there any risk of fire if say the cloth from a camp chair were to get close to the charger?

I know some rookie questions but I'd like to be sure that I can do this once and not be going the trial and error route.

If you have the Lippert or Furrion Shunt that they are installing on the new rigs you will want to connect the negative of the battery charger to the shunt not the battery. I have seen where they install that on a fifth wheel but not a travel trailer so you may need to hunt a little. I would expect it to be near the battery. The positive can be connected directly to the battery as far as the monitor is concerned.

I have no experience with the Victron charger, so no help there, but I would encourage you to look at a converter instead. Assuming you are going lithium (by the post title) you will not need a battery charger with stages. Most (my Lion Energy and Battleborn are all I have experience with) call for a flat DC output and to let the batteries BMS handle throttling the charge. If thats the case for your batteries, a converter that is lithium compatible will be cheaper, and get you more charging current, which will in turn charge the batteries faster (particularly handy if charging from a generator). I personally have used the PowerMax (available on Amazon up to 100A) and the Progressive Dynamics with good luck. The Powermax has a simply switch on the side you flip to disable its "staged" charge profile and then a small knob you turn to set the voltage. Set it an forget it, no need to monitor the charger, you should see its output on your shunt display.

[Schiefswret]

In May I purchased a 2022 Imagine 17MKE with 165W solar package and 12V Furrion Refrigerator. As luck would have it, I had booked a week at a State Park with no hookups. My plan was to bring along a Honda EU3500 generator to recharge battery if the solar couldn't keep up. Well, with the dealer installed battery (80 amp hr), the refrigerator did not make it through the first day. Overnight, the fridge stopped due to battery depletion. Lost all of the perishable food in the refrigerator. After getting over my disappointment, I'm trying to find an EASY way to fix the problem. I spent the remainder of the week using a cooler and blocks of ice. Having a nice big empty fridge was not how I was hoping the week would go.

I checked the solar controller (MPPT 25A Furrion) and it does have a Lithium battery option. (A) Can I just add two Lithium batteries to the tongue and move on ? (B) In reading here, it appears there is a second battery charger built into the power center ??? Do I have to replace or disconnect this battery charger?

I'm not electrically experienced so I was hoping to avoid or minimize messing around with the wiring.

Jack

Southern MA

I believe the Lith replacement would be the WF-9850L but call WFCO just to be sure.

[BLoflin]

Though you are on your way to having a better solution (more battery Ahr), for completeness (and others) the 12V refrig has a setting that is specified to use when trying to run on solar/battery, only. It's the 2 dots lower on the dial in the refrig. Basically you are cutting back the thermostat, so the compressor is not required as much. So you really would need to get Refrig and Freezer loaded and run off shore/home power for 24 hours to get it to a good low temp. Then when trying to run just on Solar/Battery move dial to the "boondock" position. The issue is the Refrig can pull up to about 11A at 12V when compressor is going. On a 80Ahr lead acid battery, you can use 40Ahr, so you get about 4 hours of compressor run time. If you the dial maxed and starting from ambient, the compressor will run continuously. And then you are out of luck in a few hours. If you have the refrig and contents at good temp (using shore power), and you have sun on the Solar Panel (no trees) for the whole day, you should be able to run the refrig off the solar/battery, thru the night and catch back up with charging the next day.

As built (a single 165W max Solar Panel and the typical dealer installed 80 or 100Ahr marine battery), I believe it is just meant to maintain your refrig/freezer while on the road (no trees over Solar Panel, no one opening refrig all day), until you get to your next destination and can use shore power or your generator if your "boondocking". It is not meant to run the refrig while camped and getting in it. Now with adding more Solar and more Ahr batteries (bank of lithium) you will be there.

[Jack61]

Though you are on your way to having a better solution (more battery Ahr), for completeness (and others) the 12V refrig has a setting that is specified to use when trying to run on solar/battery, only. It's the 2 dots lower on the dial in the refrig. Basically you are cutting back the thermostat, so the compressor is not required as much. So you really would need to get Refrig and Freezer loaded and run off shore/home power for 24 hours to get it to a good low temp. Then when trying to run just on Solar/Battery move dial to the "boondock" position. The issue is the Refrig can pull up to about 11A at 12V when compressor is going. On a 80Ahr lead acid battery, you can use 40Ahr, so you get about 4 hours of compressor run time. If you the dial maxed and starting from ambient, the compressor will run continuously. And then you are out of luck in a few hours. If you have the refrig and contents at good temp (using shore power), and you have sun on the Solar Panel (no trees) for the whole day, you should be able to run the refrig off the solar/battery, thru the night and catch back up with charging the next day.

As built (a single 165W max Solar Panel and the typical dealer installed 80 or 100Ahr marine battery), I believe it is just meant to maintain your refrig/freezer while on the road (no trees over Solar Panel, no one opening refrig all day), until you get to your next destination and can use shore power or your generator if your "boondocking". It is not meant to run the refrig while camped and getting in it. Now with adding more Solar and more Ahr batteries (bank of lithium) you will be there.

Thanks for the info. I did see the lower thermostat setting but honestly did not lower the setting for my first attempt. The dealer had assured me that I would be ok with the generator running a couple of hours a day .... not even close. I boondock camp a few times a year and honestly would like to do more thus I'm trying to "reasonably" upgrade the system to accommodate the refrigerator. I'm hoping that I can run the generator 2 or 3 hours in the am and then 2 or 3 hours before bed to keep the battery up and then the solar panel for some cushion during the day.

I called WFCO in Indiana. The WF-8735 does not have a replaceable converter. The suggested solution is to purchase a WF-8735-AD (which is lithium capable) and then re-wire the panel. I'd love to hear from anyone who has done this swap. The support tech said it is pretty much a one-for-one swap of wires between the old and the new. He also told me to be careful and make sure I place the 30 amp breaker in the #6 spot in the new power center. Without a 30 amp fuse in that spot, you will get nothing on the 12V side.

I'm getting a bit intimidated with pulling this off on my own. Looking at photos of some of the setups is awe inspiring but the gauge of wire I'm seeing looks like you could power a small city on them. Just the crimp tool to put those lugs on has got to be several hundred bucks. Seems like all the pro shops that do this kind of work are either AZ or the West Coast plus I'm imagining a big bill from that route.

[ncitro]

Thanks for the info. I did see the lower thermostat setting but honestly did not lower the setting for my first attempt. The dealer had assured me that I would be ok with the generator running a couple of hours a day .... not even close. I boondock camp a few times a year and honestly would like to do more thus I'm trying to "reasonably" upgrade the system to accommodate the refrigerator. I'm hoping that I can run the generator 2 or 3 hours in the am and then 2 or 3 hours before bed to keep the battery up and then the solar panel for some cushion during the day.

I called WFCO in Indiana. The WF-8735 does not have a replaceable converter. The suggested solution is to purchase a WF-8735-AD (which is lithium capable) and then re-wire the panel. I'd love to hear from anyone who has done this swap. The support tech said it is pretty much a one-for-one swap of wires between the old and the new. He also told me to be careful and make sure I place the 30 amp breaker in the #6 spot in the new power center. Without a 30 amp fuse in that spot, you will get nothing on the 12V side.

I'm getting a bit intimidated with pulling this off on my own. Looking at photos of some of the setups is awe inspiring but the gauge of wire I'm seeing looks like you could power a small city on them. Just the crimp tool to put those lugs on has got to be several hundred bucks. Seems like all the pro shops that do this kind of work are either AZ or the West Coast plus I'm imagining a big bill from that route.

Where are you out of curiosity. If you are around Chicago I would be glad to lend a hand.

I have never done the power center swap but I would think its pretty easy. A deck mount converter is dead simple. They have a plug on the AC end, you plug them into a regular wall outlet, the DC end has two screw ports, one wire goes to the plus and one goes to the negative.

[Jack61]

Where are you out of curiosity. If you are around Chicago I would be glad to lend a hand.

I have never done the power center swap but I would think its pretty easy. A deck mount converter is dead simple. They have a plug on the AC end, you plug them into a regular wall outlet, the DC end has two screw ports, one wire goes to the plus and one goes to the negative.

That's a very generous offer! I wish I was near Chicago ... I'm in Southeastern Massachussetts about 1/2 way between Boston and Providence, RI. Very close to the home of the New England Patriots

[acoleman43]

After reading here and sending several emails to WFCO who haven't replied. I have been unable to confirm if one of the replacement converters will fit in the WF-8735 power panel. So I'm kind of back to liking the idea of putting a Victron 25A charger in the pass thru storage area and running the charge leads back to the batteries on the tongue.

Along with that, the idea of shortening the run from the charger to the batteries seems to be a desirable approach. Now the questions -

1. My current configuration has two leads (black and red) coming from the battery box on the tongue. I'm assuming they make the run back to the WF-8735 Power Center and then are distributed from there to the 12V devices. There is a battery monitor on the control panel in the kitchen cabinet and also a second smaller display in the passthru storage area near the solar controller. If I install the Victron 25A charger in the passthru storage area and run the two charge leads back to the batteries on the tonge, is there any problem with battery monitors? I've seen some posts about everything being after the shunt and wonder if having the charge leads as a second direct battery connection is a problem?
2. I see from some reviews on the Victron charger that it gets quite hot. Should this be mounted on some sort of heat sink rather then directly to the wall of the pass thru storage area? Is there any risk of fire if say the cloth from a camp chair were to get close to the charger?

I know some rookie questions but I'd like to be sure that I can do this once and not be going the trial and error route.

Which Victron charger are you looking at? Some run hotter than others. My IP67 does run pretty hot. I don't know that I would mount this somewhere without good airflow. The IP22 runs much cooler.

As far as swapping panels, it's not as difficult as you would think, but it isn't something I'd try if you're not confident.

[Country Campers]

You could just add a Lithium battery and the solar charger set to lithium should top the battery off at the correct voltage. I am in western Pa and would also be glad to help but you are a good 15 hours away. Plenty here would be willing to help walk you thru any of the avenues you go.

Brian

[Jack61]

Parts are finally arriving to complete my switch to LiFeP04 batteries.

2 x 100 AHr Battleborn LiFeP04 batteries
Victron 712 Smart Monitor
2 Battery Trays
PowerMax PM4 75A 110V AC to 12V DC 75 amp power converter with built in 4 stage smart battery charger.

Here's the plan so far

1. Add a piece of plywood to the backwall of the passthru storage area for mounting of terminal blocks / disconnect switch, shunt for existing Furrion shunt and shunt for Victron 712 smart monitor.
2. Mount two battery trays inside the passthru storage compartment at the front of the 17MKE in front of the new plywood mounting plate.
3. Install two Battleborn batteries in the trays.
4. Mount the following on the plywood base plate -
   1. PowerMax converter
   2. Battery Disconnect switch
   3. Victron shunt
   4. Furrion Shunt
   5. Black Distribution Block
   6. Red Distribution Block
   7. Victron 712 Round Display
5. Disconnect the positive (red) wire from the existing battery and the distribution block located on the frame of the 17MKE on the passenger side.
6. Mount a new distribution block (black) near the existing red distribution block for the current wire coming from the battery. Cut the existing negative battery cable and crimp on new lug and attach it to the new distribution block
7. Build jumper wires to connect two batteries in parallel.
8. mount shunts on plywood base. Connect wire from 1 battery negative terminal to the Victron 712 battery connection and then a short jumper from the load side of the Victron to the battery side of the Furrion shunt.
9. Build cables to connect positive from battery #1 to the disconnect switch and then to red terminal block.
10. Build cables to connect negative from battery #2 to the Victron Shunt battery side, Victron Load side of shunt to battery connection on Furrion Shunt, and Furrion shunt load side to the distribution block.
11. Build and connect converter positive and negative cables. Positive cable direct to battery #1. Negative cable to new black terminal block connected to the load side of the old Furrion shunt
12. Route new black, red and a green ground cable to the underside of the camper at the distribution blocks on the frame
13. cut ends and add lugs to connect from the distribution blocks on the plywood plate to the distribution blocks on the frame of the 17MKE.
14. Disable existing converter located in the power distribution panel. Remove wire from circuit break to prevent possible power up.
15. Plug in new PowerMax converter to the outlet located on the control panel inside the passthru area.

Now the questions -

1. Where is the best place to route the new cables from the inside of the passthru storage area to the distribution blocks on the frame of the camper?
2. Do I need to cover the solar panel during this process to prevent charging?
3. Is 4 gauge wire sufficient to complete these connections or do I need to go bigger?

Lastly, if you see something wrong please comment. It looks fairly simple now that I've got it mapped out but I'd much rather find a mistake now before I start mounting stuff.

Thank you all for your assistance and sorry if I'm a bit long winded.

Jack

[acoleman43]

Parts are finally arriving to complete my switch to LiFeP04 batteries.

2 x 100 AHr Battleborn LiFeP04 batteries
Victron 712 Smart Monitor
2 Battery Trays
PowerMax PM4 75A 110V AC to 12V DC 75 amp power converter with built in 4 stage smart battery charger.

Here's the plan so far

1. Add a piece of plywood to the backwall of the passthru storage area for mounting of terminal blocks / disconnect switch, shunt for existing Furrion shunt and shunt for Victron 712 smart monitor.
2. Mount two battery trays inside the passthru storage compartment at the front of the 17MKE in front of the new plywood mounting plate.
3. Install two Battleborn batteries in the trays.
4. Mount the following on the plywood base plate -
   1. PowerMax converter
   2. Battery Disconnect switch
   3. Victron shunt
   4. Furrion Shunt
   5. Black Distribution Block
   6. Red Distribution Block
   7. Victron 712 Round Display
5. Disconnect the positive (red) wire from the existing battery and the distribution block located on the frame of the 17MKE on the passenger side.
6. Mount a new distribution block (black) near the existing red distribution block for the current wire coming from the battery. Cut the existing negative battery cable and crimp on new lug and attach it to the new distribution block
7. Build jumper wires to connect two batteries in parallel.
8. mount shunts on plywood base. Connect wire from 1 battery negative terminal to the Victron 712 battery connection and then a short jumper from the load side of the Victron to the battery side of the Furrion shunt.
9. Build cables to connect positive from battery #1 to the disconnect switch and then to red terminal block.
10. Build cables to connect negative from battery #2 to the Victron Shunt battery side, Victron Load side of shunt to battery connection on Furrion Shunt, and Furrion shunt load side to the distribution block.
11. Build and connect converter positive and negative cables. Positive cable direct to battery #1. Negative cable to new black terminal block connected to the load side of the old Furrion shunt
12. Route new black, red and a green ground cable to the underside of the camper at the distribution blocks on the frame
13. cut ends and add lugs to connect from the distribution blocks on the plywood plate to the distribution blocks on the frame of the 17MKE.
14. Disable existing converter located in the power distribution panel. Remove wire from circuit break to prevent possible power up.
15. Plug in new PowerMax converter to the outlet located on the control panel inside the passthru area.

Now the questions -

1. Where is the best place to route the new cables from the inside of the passthru storage area to the distribution blocks on the frame of the camper?
2. Do I need to cover the solar panel during this process to prevent charging?
3. Is 4 gauge wire sufficient to complete these connections or do I need to go bigger?

Lastly, if you see something wrong please comment. It looks fairly simple now that I've got it mapped out but I'd much rather find a mistake now before I start mounting stuff.

Thank you all for your assistance and sorry if I'm a bit long winded.

Jack

My ADHD kicked in so I may have missed a few things

Why do you want 2 shunts?
I'm not understanding step 12 and where the green wire came from or is going.

I also didn't see where the new converter was wired into the main distribution panel. The converter should basically bypass the battery and go directly to the distribution panel to provide the panel with DC electricity. Depending on your distribution panel, the charger/converter probably goes to the DC side of your main distribution panel. Your batteries are also connected to the DC side of your main distribution panel. This allows the charger/converter to power the DC side of the panel and charge the batteries through the panel.

The AC plug on the backside of the main distribution panel should be connected through a breaker on the AC side of your panel. Make sure the breaker is sized correctly for the charger/converter.

[Jack61]

My ADHD kicked in so I may have missed a few things

Why do you want 2 shunts?
I'm not understanding step 12 and where the green wire came from or is going.

I also didn't see where the new converter was wired into the main distribution panel. The converter should basically bypass the battery and go directly to the distribution panel to provide the panel with DC electricity. Depending on your distribution panel, the charger/converter probably goes to the DC side of your main distribution panel. Your batteries are also connected to the DC side of your main distribution panel. This allows the charger/converter to power the DC side of the panel and charge the batteries through the panel.

The AC plug on the backside of the main distribution panel should be connected through a breaker on the AC side of your panel. Make sure the breaker is sized correctly for the charger/converter.

1. On the shunt, I was just keeping things "as is" as far as what was in the camper. Really probably makes sense to just take out the Furrion shunt all together. The Victron has much more capabilities.
2. The green wire needs to go to the frame of the camper. Sorry I missed that. There is a grounding lug from the Powermax that I thought should go to the chassis.

Assuming that the wiring brought the battery connection all the way to the power panel, I'm just pulling the converter and leaving the DC side connected as it was. Essentially I'm taking the two battery cable connections and moving them inside the passthru storage to the new distribution blocks. Then the new batteries connect to the same distribution blocks.

[acoleman43]

1. On the shunt, I was just keeping things "as is" as far as what was in the camper. Really probably makes sense to just take out the Furrion shunt all together. The Victron has much more capabilities.
2. The green wire needs to go to the frame of the camper. Sorry I missed that. There is a grounding lug from the Powermax that I thought should go to the chassis.

Assuming that the wiring brought the battery connection all the way to the power panel, I'm just pulling the converter and leaving the DC side connected as it was. Essentially I'm taking the two battery cable connections and moving them inside the passthru storage to the new distribution blocks. Then the new batteries connect to the same distribution blocks.

First, I think, once complete, you're going to like this upgrade. It's expensive, but it does allow you to stop worrying so much about aspects of the trailer (will the fridge keep running through the night??) and enjoy the trailer and you r adventures.

My only concern is making sure the converter/charger is connected to the DC side of the main distribution panel.

[Jack61]

Yeah I agree that it should solve my problems. It was frustrating to have my second trip be one that I couldn't use the refrigerator for 10 days. I was back in my pop-up mode with blocks of ice and a cooler. Oh well this should solve things and make it stress free. Everything else about this camper I have loved so far.

The batteries are charging and working correctly now so the wiring has to be going all the way back to the power center. I'm just disconnecting AC power from the original converter so it cannot turn on.
Assuming I just moved those two wires to a new location, things should be a-ok (fingers crossed). The new converter is getting ac from a gfci outlet in the pass thru storage (3 prong plug in). The plan is to set it for constant 14.5 V and let the battery's management system control the charge.

BTW in the photo above of a PowerMax you can see the ground lug beside the two DC output lugs.