200MK Wire Routing and Entry

[epearce]

So, continuing the adventure of upgrading to LiFePO4 batteries... I need some bigger wires from the solar controller, and especially the converter in the PDP. To the 200MK people out there, where does this mess go on the 200MK? Does it go into some basement space in the passthrough? Is it fishable? How easy is it to pull off and reseal? Anyone have a better penetration/seal approach? Just stuffing the wires through a hole and some insulation and blasting it with a blob of spary foam does not really feel like the best approach.

[Country Campers]

I would think that the positive from the battery or thereabouts would travel above the coroplast, underbelly, to the PDP, most likely just laying loose. Dropping the underbelly will be your best avenue to run new wires. Using the old wire to pull the new wire may work but will probably get stuck somewhere.

Brian

[acoleman43]

So, continuing the adventure of upgrading to LiFePO4 batteries... I need some bigger wires from the solar controller, and especially the converter in the PDP. To the 200MK people out there, where does this mess go on the 200MK? Does it go into some basement space in the passthrough? Is it fishable? How easy is it to pull off and reseal? Anyone have a better penetration/seal approach? Just stuffing the wires through a hole and some insulation and blasting it with a blob of spary foam does not really feel like the best approach.

That is a wiring mess. Good luck

[humunuku]

epearce

I am not sure that this will help but here it goes. We have an Imagine 2670MK (2021), This mess looks similar to what we have. I relocated the batteries from the tongue box into the pass through behind the nautilus panel. This panel also holds our batterey disconnect. During this move I also upgraded batteries to lithium. In doing this I rewired the batteries and converter. I needed to run new wires from the junction box on the tongue (see picture) through an existing chase that was sealed with Great Stuff, I did not have to drop the under-belly Coroplast and I was grateful for that. I knocked off the old expanding foam very easily and it revealed a large chase for all the electrical behind the battery disconnect in the pass-through. Above the underbelly was a hidden structural cross-member and the wire chase was to the rear of this. It was a very large opening and made running new wires easy (no fishing required). After all new wires were in place and tested, I restuffed-the chase with pest resistant Great Stuff. In my opinion the expanding foam makes a very good grommet which protects any wires or LP gas lines from rubbing on metal frames.I am not very diligent at taking pictures of my projects like the masters on the site, but I have attached a photo showing the wires coming through the chase into the space behind the battery disconnect. I am sorry I don't have a view from below. I hope this helps with some knowledge but maybe adds some confidence that you are heading in the right direction.

[epearce]

humunuku yes, that is super helpful. I got my Smart Shunt and 60 A breaker in today (see the related story on Solar). Next is the 6 AWG over to the updated converter, so I'll just dig in. Sounds like from all the posts that blob just gets up under the Coroplast. Its only spray foam after all, I have some of that.

[epearce]

howson moving this discussion over from the Emergency break discussion, and its sort of drifted off topic from that...Thanks for the wiring info on the other thread. It is indeed different on the Transcend...
humunuku thanks for the insight on the existing chase... I just opened up the coroplast and dug in. Its very similar to what you discribe on the 200MK. As for stuffing the chase, I wonder if those are open to allow heated furnace air into the pass through. I know even on a cold night, the pass through stays almost as warm as the interior (I have a remote thermometer in there). I know as long as the furnace is running, nothing is going to freeze in there as long as you don't open the doors and look in, but I don't know where the warm air comes from.

• The OEM Shutoff is fed by a 8 or 10 AWG from the load side of the Bussman Short Stop 30 Amp break.
• From the OEM shutoff, the wire runs under the coroplast to the PDP. Both the slide and the awning motors are powered out of the PDP on separate circuits
• The 12- back from the PDP must be bonded to the frame under the PDP somewhere, it does not route back to the tongue.
• Other than the across the coroplast run from the Shutoff back to the PDP, most of the wiring is just in a giant bundle running along the curbside frame
• The refrigerator appears to run directly to the tongue (both the 12+ and 12-) on a dedicated wire. There is no fuse, it must be a "behind the refrigerator" fuse.

So, the cutoff really only cuts off the PDP, and leaves the refrigerator, tongue jack (and its light), on. The rationale is described as "safety", but it really is just the ease of putting the disconnect on the PDP wire.

Then when you upgrade to lithium batteries, and you upgrade the converter, now the 8 AWG, and the Bussman Short Stop are undersized for the 55 Amp output current. Oddly, the OEM lead-acid converter is also rated 55 Amps, but must not actually put that kind of current out. Or maybe it does, and it just cycles the Short Stop, and no one notices because the interior is on 12+ converter power and not affected. Replacing the Short Stop with the 60 A T Tocas fixed that, and since its a Type-III, it does not auto-reset, so I will know if there is a problem being caused by the converter puting out too much current charging.

Also, seems like best practice for the large DC loads is to run a 12- back to the common point back at the battery bank--I can accept small loads like lights and being run with a single 12+ and using the frame for the 12-, but not a 55 Amp PDP.

[humunuku]

epearce

Thank you for providing your observations and research. I think you have identified a problem which I will need to investigate. By comparing images and the parts list provided in this forum, I believe my Short-stop breaker is: OptiFuse ACBP-V-30C Type I Green, 30A. If I am following your comments correctly, my lithium converter is pushing up to 55 amps into the batteries. During the installation I replaced the 8 with 6 AWG < 7ft long so I should be ok with wire size. I also am using a 12- run back to the battery as good practice also. Because the short-stop is auto-reset maybe it is cycling and I don't notice as you say. But this can not be healthy and if I understand correctly, all that resetting will surely cause it to fail sooner than later.

Next week I will climb under the frame and verify the current breaker size. If need be, I will replace it with a similar but properly sized unit. I like your suggestion of a manual reset but becuase of the open to environment location for mine, I will plan to use an auto-reset similar to the existing unit.

Quick question: If I can only find a 50amp and not 60 in the auto-reset version, is there any value in making the change form the existing 30 amp?

On your other point regarding the chase as a duct for heating. I agree with you in that the opening is large enough to provide adequate heat to the sensitive water pipe array at the back of the nautilus system. I also agree that i would not encourage filling this with Great-Stuff pest block. In my application I only used the Great Stuff to reseal the hole where the wires punch through the coroplast n front of the metal frame from below the rig. The seal is very strong and protects the wire from rubbing on the frame and keeps the moisture out. However, I did not spray enough to disturb the airflow form the underbelly compartment to the water manifold area. I think there is still adequate heat getting to the water pipes but have not had an opportunity to confirm this.


Thank you for sharing your observations and knowledge. I am sure it has saved me an unpleasant experience.

[howson]

epearce -- I've had the OEM Battery Disconnect described to me as a Power Distribution Panel (PDP) Cutoff. Since the Battery Disconnect name continues to confuse owners by implying a function it does not do, I asked why the name wasn't changed to PDP Cutoff. The answer was, "because that's always been it's name". (Soooo tempted to write out the monkey and banana story...)

When I asked what requirement drove the installation of a PDP battery disconnect I got a blank look as the response. Based on that response I pressed further and asked why the disconnect couldn't be reutilized as the solar panel-to-solar controller cutoff as that (IMHO) is a feature owners need much more than a PDP cutoff. (Even the owners manual states to remove the negative from the battery for "long term storage"!) Drives me crazy that there isn't a panel shutoff switch from the factory. Almost like installing a light in the cabin and requiring owners to pull the fixture and disconnect wires (or connect them) to turn it off and on.

Sorry--kind of a rant this morning. Based on what I read in post 6 it appears to this random guy on the internet that you're on the right track. Good Morning!

Howard

[epearce]

howson Yes, I'm halfway through moving everything inside the pass in that little alcove half way in between the water pump and the electric/pumbing. I ended up reusing my 30 A Tocas as the solar panel cutoff (I was using a moving blanket tossed over the panel). I cannot tell you how disappointed I am with RV wiring practices and workmanship. I guess GD is may be better, but really no different... more discoveries every day on the continuing story of the lithium battery upgrade and more trips to Amazon...

[epearce]

epearce

Thank you for providing your observations and research. I think you have identified a problem which I will need to investigate. By comparing images and the parts list provided in this forum, I believe my Short-stop breaker is: OptiFuse ACBP-V-30C Type I Green, 30A. If I am following your comments correctly, my lithium converter is pushing up to 55 amps into the batteries. During the installation I replaced the 8 with 6 AWG < 7ft long so I should be ok with wire size. I also am using a 12- run back to the battery as good practice also. Because the short-stop is auto-reset maybe it is cycling and I don't notice as you say. But this can not be healthy and if I understand correctly, all that resetting will surely cause it to fail sooner than later.

Next week I will climb under the frame and verify the current breaker size. If need be, I will replace it with a similar but properly sized unit. I like your suggestion of a manual reset but becuase of the open to environment location for mine, I will plan to use an auto-reset similar to the existing unit.

Quick question: If I can only find a 50amp and not 60 in the auto-reset version, is there any value in making the change form the existing 30 amp?

On your other point regarding the chase as a duct for heating. I agree with you in that the opening is large enough to provide adequate heat to the sensitive water pipe array at the back of the nautilus system. I also agree that i would not encourage filling this with Great-Stuff pest block. In my application I only used the Great Stuff to reseal the hole where the wires punch through the coroplast n front of the metal frame from below the rig. The seal is very strong and protects the wire from rubbing on the frame and keeps the moisture out. However, I did not spray enough to disturb the airflow form the underbelly compartment to the water manifold area. I think there is still adequate heat getting to the water pipes but have not had an opportunity to confirm this.


Thank you for sharing your observations and knowledge. I am sure it has saved me an unpleasant experience.

humunuku A had the Tocas manual reset breaker on my frame just behind the battery, and it was never a problem. I really don't get the logic of that being an automatic reset breaker. I always thought it was just a dumb undersized two-post distribution block. Its sort of the breaker of last resort since everything else (except the e-brake) is individually protected. Wouldn't you want to know if its tripping? I guess I we have discovered, the converter output to charge the battery was not otherwise protected. I suspect it only puts out that amount of current when you have totally discharged lithium batteries. Let me know if that thing is cycling, if you can even tell, I'm eager to find out.

[Country Campers]

howson Yes, I'm halfway through moving everything inside the pass in that little alcove half way in between the water pump and the electric/pumbing. I ended up reusing my 30 A Tocas as the solar panel cutoff (I was using a moving blanket tossed over the panel). I cannot tell you how disappointed I am with RV wiring practices and workmanship. I guess GD is may be better, but really no different... more discoveries every day on the continuing story of the lithium battery upgrade and more trips to Amazon...

We all have been down the road of the wiring mess and plumbing issues. All manufactures do these about the same way which none of us find amusing at all. Fixing these items and setting up the way that you want will be much better in the long run. No excuse for this kind of manufacturing but it is the way they do it.

Brian

[humunuku]

humunuku A had the Tocas manual reset breaker on my frame just behind the battery, and it was never a problem. I really don't get the logic of that being an automatic reset breaker. I always thought it was just a dumb undersized two-post distribution block. Its sort of the breaker of last resort since everything else (except the e-brake) is individually protected. Wouldn't you want to know if its tripping? I guess I we have discovered, the converter output to charge the battery was not otherwise protected. I suspect it only puts out that amount of current when you have totally discharged lithium batteries. Let me know if that thing is cycling, if you can even tell, I'm eager to find out.

Eric, do you remember this conversation? First of all, your guidence and speculation saved me a world of hurt today. For that I am very grateful. The short story is that we moved sites 4 days ago and it was a five hour drive. Sometime during that drive, the circuit breaker feeding the converter was tripped.For four days I did not realize that I was using batteries for all 12V devices despite being connected to shore power. Because the converter was disconnected, it neither charged the batteries nor converted power. Today, the batteries became fully drained. I no longer had any 12v devices. I checked the circuit breaker in the power distribution panel and it was tripped. I don't know if it was because of rough roads or as you suggested, maybe the auto-reset 30amp circuit breaker was cycling too much. I reset the circuit breaker and the converter started cycling on and off. My first assumption was the converter had failed. But then I remembered this conversation. Thankfully,following your advice I had purchased the 60amp manual reset and threw it into my project box for a later install.

Rather than continuing with the assumption the converter failed, I decided to do the cheaper option and replace the 30amp with the 60amp. Nothing is ever as easy as it could be. The ring connectors used for the 30amp were too small for the 60amp. The space used for the 30amp on the inside of the trailer frame was tight. I was able to drill two new holes and mount the 60amp in the same place. This was lucky since 4 of the 6 wires would have been too short if the breaker needed to be relocated. 4 hours later, a trip to the auto parts store, and with some luck the rain held off, the new manual reset circuit breaker is installed.

At the end of the day, the converter has been running flawlessly. It spent the first hour drawing 52amps which answers a question previously raised. If the batteries are kept fully charged, the Opti 30amp auto-reset would probably have continued to be adequate. But as soon as the batteries fell below trickle charge range, the 30amp CB could not handle the load. I am convinced that you saved the day. I still don't understand why the circuit breaker in the PDP tripped but that can wait for another day.

Thanks again Eric. (I love this forum)

[Country Campers]

humunuku

You may want to have the battery checked. In the very low discharge state that you mentioned you may have damaged the battery which will add an extra unneeded load on the converter trying to charge the battery.

Brian

[humunuku]

humunuku

You may want to have the battery checked. In the very low discharge state that you mentioned you may have damaged the battery which will add an extra unneeded load on the converter trying to charge the battery.

Brian

Brian, Thank you for taking the time to read my post and providing your insights. Based on your recommendation I searched Battle-born customer support and found this comment.

"Second, it’s important to avoid completely depleting your batteries. Yes, lithium-ion batteries are amazing because they can handle a 100% depth of discharge and still work exceptionally well. However, if you can avoid doing this repeatedly, you’ll increase the lifespan of your batteries significantly."

I also learned that the integrated Battle-Born Battery Management System (BMS) includes a low voltage disconnect (LVD). This feature keeps 5v in the battery. This 5v allows my WFCO charger to recognize the battery and fully recharge without damage to the battery or charger. The points you raise are very important. But with a properly installed and managed BMS, batteries and chargers can be protected from damage due to over discharging. I am thankful to Battle-Born for including the LVD.Looking at amps and voltage this morning I am fairly confident my system is functioning at full capacity. Other than these readings I am not sure how to check batteries other than fully loading them without shore power connected.

[Country Campers]

Al,

I did not realize, and forgot, that you had Battle Born batteries, they should be fine. howson had an issue one time when his battery bank was fully depleted and he had to "jump start" them in order to take a charge, completely different set up than what you have though. The BMS does keep one from damaging the battery.

Brian