What is 2nd breaker box for

[2by4]

I am doing all the research to upgrade to LifePo4 batteries and install/upgrade inverter on my 2021 28G Momentum bumper pull toy hauler that has 30A shore power and 30A generator. Right now I'm tracing down all the wire's and where they go to; also to understand their needs and what can be/has to be redone.

RV is prepped for Solar; but I don't have solar panels nor inverter currently installed.

The main panel for 110 and 12v is WFCO WF-8955PEC-GE panel:

on the left side there is another panel with 2 15 AMP circuit breakers MAIN and Kit/Bed/TV that I am trying to figure out the purpose off:



There is a black and blue wires connected to this box that I had not yet been able to trace. Blue wire is also connected to that white junction box. Does anyone know what is this 2nd panel for?

[Country Campers]

I am guessing that is the Inverter panel so when an inverter is installed in the Inverter prep lines the items in that panel will get power from the inverter. acoleman43 may be able to help on this.

Brian

[howson]

2by4

Does your 28G have a Mini-EMS (Energy Management System) installed? See page 92 of the 2022 Rev 3 Momentum G-Class TT Owner's manual. (Link to GD's owner's manual website is on the menu bar above if you want an electronic copy.)

The wiring for the inverter should be behind the removable panel inside the door-side, forward compartment. (See page 89 of the owner's manual.)

What I can't figure out with the resources available to me is the location of the transfer switch for the generator.

I'm guessing the picture showing the WFCO removed shows the current sensor associated with the Mini-EMS and the silver box is the generator's transfer switch.




To your specific question about the second circuit breaker box, I'm confident Country Campers is correct. What I don't know for sure is how an inverter is tied into this system along with the generator input. Again, an educated guess is that only the circuits in the camper powered from that secondary breaker box will be "live" with an inverter. Everything should work off the generator.

Again (sorry to be so redundant) I'm guessing the generator's120vAC output has priority. In other words, when the generator is on and providing power the camper will use it regardless if shore power is available or not.

If shore power is available and generator power is not, then shore power is prioritized. (The wiring change happens in the transfer switch which I think is the box I labeled above.)

If neither shore or generator power is available, then inverter power is available but only to the circuits powered off that secondary breaker box. This is intentional on GD's part as your 28G is designed for a maximum of a 2000W inverter from the factory thus the 15A breaker. The "Main" breaker in the secondary panel is literally used as a bridge to get power from the main box to the secondary box.

IMHO you're on the right track by mapping out the circuits. I did the same and made a graphic map (see below). It's not hard--isolate each breaker and see what works (or doesn't work) in the camper.



Please keep the forum updated on what you learn -- sharing information is the power of this owner's forum!

Howard

[acoleman43]

I am guessing that is the Inverter panel so when an inverter is installed in the Inverter prep lines the items in that panel will get power from the inverter. acoleman43 may be able to help on this.

Brian

2by4 I have a 2021 21G. Mine came with the 300W solar panel and 1000W inverter installed.

I re-wired the entire panel (replaced the panel) and sub-panel a few months back. Let me try to answer your questions.

If I remember right, the little white box you circled was just a way to splice some romex wire together.

The subpanel to the left of the main panel is for the inverted outlets (as you see they are wire for an outlet in the kitchen, bedroom and the TV....I think mine also had the bathroom AC outlet wired into this). This is used because not all circuits are wired to the inverter by GD.

I believe the system is pre-wired for a 1000W inverter.....this is why only specific outlets are wired to the inverter.

This is how my wiring was done, starting from the inverter:

-Batteries were wired into back side of inverter (DC in). Inverter was a Magnum CSW1012W. You can find pictures online for reference.

-On the front side of the inverter is a GFI AC outlet. A Magnum CSW-TS15 automatic transfer switch was plugged into this outlet.

-Also on the front side of the inverter is a "remote" port. A "phone line" cable ran from this port to a remote power switch for the inverter.

-There was a single blue wire that ran from the remote power switch to ??? I can't remember :( I think this is to supply power to the remote switch.

-The CSW-TS-15 ATS has an AC input 1, AC Input 2 and AC output. The AC input 1 is the plugged into outlet on front side of inverter (see above). The AC input 2 had a romex cable run to the "INVERTER" breaker on the AC side of the main distribution panel. The AC Output had a romex cable to the "MAIN" breaker of the small subpanel to left of main distribution panel.

-The "KIT/BED/TV" breaker in the small subpanel to left of main distribution panel had the inverted outlets wired to it.

I have a couple pictures below...I hope they help a little.









I think the prewire probably has the "KIT/BED/TV" breaker in the subpanel wired directly to the "INVERTER" breaker in the main distribution panel OR the "MAIN" breaker in the subpanel is wired to the "INVERTER" breaker int he main panel to provide power to the outlets. I think this is where you start.....find out where the "MAIN" romex in teh subpanel runs

Also the "XFER Switch" that Howard labeled in his reply is your main ATS. You should have romex from your shore power and from your generator into this ATS. Then one romex from this ATS to your main distribution panel.

I hope this helps some....

[2by4]

Thank you very much for tons of info! It will take me some time to go through all and trace it down as certain things I am not sure about and I will need to go back to RV and trace it back and document.


thanks again!

[2by4]

Finally after the holidays I was able to get back to the RV in snow and cold to try to figure out how to wire in the inverter; but I am more than ever confused.

howson - this is WFCO WF-8955PEC-GE with built-in WF-T30 transfer switch for shore and Generator power and you are correct, that is the Mini-EMS (Energy Management System) that is visible in the back of the wall.

When on shore power; only when ALL of the following circuit breakers are ON, there is a power output to Inverter outlets as shown in attached picture below:

1. WFCO panel:
   • Main 30A ON
   • Inverter 15A ON
2. Subpanel:
   • Main 15A ON
   • Kit/Bed/TV ON

They are missing TV on Inverter, as it is only powered on with GFI/Gen

There are several problems that I am trying to figure out and I've been searching interwebs for weeks now:

1. Hardwiring an inverter into all of this that works with Shore power and Generator and now an Inverter. TS-30 transfer switch already working with shore and Generator; however I don't understand how can I add an inverter into the mix. For example 2200W inverter https://www.giandel.com/collections/...cts/ps-2200kar does not have a transfer switch; do I need to look at inverter with transfer switch built in?
2. Unfortunately, Inverter does have Bedroom TV outlet powered on, which is only available on GFI/GEN circuit breaker. The reason for a 2200W inverter was to be able to run microwave or coffee maker (of course one at a time) and being able to watch TV in bedroom; therefore need to extend in addition to Inverter, GFI/Gen and Microwave circuit breakers.

Wiring is as follows:
Main Panel 30A -> Inverter -> Inverter wired to Subpanel Main and that provides power for Kit/Bed/TV circuit breaker -> When Kit/Bed/TV is ON, then plugs are powered.

Suggestions are very much appreciated.

Best,

[2by4]

acoleman43 does your unit have shore power + generator with TS-30 transfer switch, or this was just shore power + inverter, hence the Magnum CSW1012W that had output to Inverter on AC side of WFCO? My unit already has wire for Inverter plugged in, therefore I am now confused about the whole setup.

Thanks!

[acoleman43]

acoleman43 does your unit have shore power + generator with TS-30 transfer switch, or this was just shore power + inverter, hence the Magnum CSW1012W that had output to Inverter on AC side of WFCO? My unit already has wire for Inverter plugged in, therefore I am now confused about the whole setup.

Thanks!

Yes, shore power and generator are both wired into the TS-30. A romex cable also goes from the TS-30 into the main distribution panel. See below for a diagram. Yours should be the same.

There are several problems that I am trying to figure out and I've been searching interwebs for weeks now:

1. Hardwiring an inverter into all of this that works with Shore power and Generator and now an Inverter. TS-30 transfer switch already working with shore and Generator; however I don't understand how can I add an inverter into the mix. For example 2200W inverter https://www.giandel.com/collections/...cts/ps-2200kar does not have a transfer switch; do I need to look at inverter with transfer switch built in?

The TS-30 is intended to allow either shore power or generator only, not both at the same time.

If shore power is plugged in and generator is off, the TS-30 will allow shore power to pass through to main distribution panel (30A main)
If generator is on, and shore power is NOT plugged in, the TS-30 will allow generator to flow to the main distribution panel (30A main)
If shore power is plugged in AND generator is on, the TS-30 will NOT allow shore power to flow to main distribution panel, but WILL allow generator to flow to the main distribution panel.
In other words the purpose of the TS-30 is to manage power inflow from shore pawer and generator so it won't blow up the distribution panel. So wiring for this should not change.

Concerning an inverter, you will need another ATS. The purpose of this ATS is to help manage power flow to the correct location. The factory installation includes a CSW TS-15 ATS. This is a 15A ATS that has inputs from the inverter and from the main distribution panel (i15A breaker labeled "INVERTER"). The output of the ATS goes to the subpanel "MAIN" breaker.
If the inverter is OFF, the CSW TS-15 will allow power to flow from the main distribution panel to the subpanel thus supplying power to the "KIT/BED/TV" breaker in the subpanel.
If the inverter is ON, the CSW TS-15 will not allow power from the main distribution panel, but will allow the inverter power to power the "KIT/BED/TV" breaker in the subpanel.
SO the purpose of this ATS is to protect the inverter from blowing up.

I would either look for an inverter with an ATS built in, or get an external ATS to help protect the inverter.

1. Unfortunately, Inverter does have Bedroom TV outlet powered on, which is only available on GFI/GEN circuit breaker. The reason for a 2200W inverter was to be able to run microwave or coffee maker (of course one at a time) and being able to watch TV in bedroom; therefore need to extend in addition to Inverter, GFI/Gen and Microwave circuit breakers.

I think this is your main issue. As you showed, the bedroom TV outlet is wired with many other outlets and connected to the "GFI/GEN" breaker in the main distribution panel. To have this connected to an inverter will need some re-wiring. You will have to bypass the TV outlet with existing romex (just disconnect romex from outlet box and connect both ends of romex together), and run a dedicated wire form the TV outlet to join the "KIT/BED/TV" wiring from the subpanel. then you can add an inverter to the subpanel to power the subpanel breaker.

OR

get an inverter that will power your entire rig. You would need to re-wire with this option as well. If this is a desired route we can go into more detail.

Hope this long boring explanation helps.

[2by4]

Is it possible somehow to wire Inverter AND Microwave with CSW TS-15 ATS only when in Inverter mode, and have separate when on Shore/generator power?

I don’t see a problem rewiring that one single Bedroom/TV outlet, but really need to have ability somehow to be able to run Microwave for a couple of minutes (requested by wife). It is a 1100W microwave so it is not going to overload.

[acoleman43]

Is it possible somehow to wire Inverter AND Microwave with CSW TS-15 ATS only when in Inverter mode, and have separate when on Shore/generator power?

I don’t see a problem rewiring that one single Bedroom/TV outlet, but really need to have ability somehow to be able to run Microwave for a couple of minutes (requested by wife). It is a 1100W microwave so it is not going to overload.

You'd have to add the microwave to the inverter panel which means you'll have to replace the subpanel with one that accepts 3 breakers. With a 15A limit you won't be able to run everything at once off the inverter.

another option is to spend the money on a solar generator/portable power station. You can plug in a few portable panels to keep it charged then plug the solar generator/portable power station into shore power. Then you can run anything in the trailer anytime you want without having to re-wire anything, without needing an inverter, and it's portable.

[2by4]

I have spent my budget on batteries and solar, only need to figure out how to connect Inverter with Microwave.

Sub panel accepts 4 breakers total. However, still not sure how to wire:

1. on inverter to have Inverter+Microwave on single 15A breaker
2. when on shore/generator to run each circuit on its own 15A circuit breaker

[acoleman43]

I have spent my budget on batteries and solar, only need to figure out how to connect Inverter with Microwave.

Sub panel accepts 4 breakers total. However, still not sure how to wire:

1. on inverter to have Inverter+Microwave on single 15A breaker
2. when on shore/generator to run each circuit on its own 15A circuit breaker

Excellent!

Remove wiring and breaker for microwave from main panel. Install the breaker for the microwave in the subpanel, then install the wiring for the microwave in the sup[anel using the microwave breaker (make sure you took ground, neutral and hot for microwave from the main panel and install in subpanel).

For bed TV, I would install another breaker in the subpanel for this. That way you don't have to splice into any existing wires.

after this you just need to install an inverter

[Yoda]

I happen to have a TS30 switch on the shelf and I dug into the manual and my papers from GoPower. Also this old thread https://gdrvowners.com/forum/solar/4...power-be-wrong It may be worth a call to GoPower, but from what I am seeing why cant you piggy back the inverter on top of the generator input feeds. Then the entire trailer is tied to the inverter when in use. You would never run both at the same time wold you? And if concerned install a simple solid state 120V switch on the inverter hot line that would isolate the inverter if generator power is present? Not sure how to do that though.

Just brainstorming

Keith

Of course you could go withe a Victron multiplus and solve many of the issues Just saying ...... That's how I ended up with the transfer switch on the shelf. Howard is to thank for that. He explained the benefits and how it solved my problem.

[2by4]

Remove wiring and breaker for microwave from main panel. Install the breaker for the microwave in the subpanel, then install the wiring for the microwave in the sup[anel using the microwave breaker (make sure you took ground, neutral and hot for microwave from the main panel and install in subpanel).

For bed TV, I would install another breaker in the subpanel for this. That way you don't have to splice into any existing wires.

after this you just need to install an inverter

Where would inverter be hooked up to, per this type of setup as now some go main, and some directly to sub-panel:

Shore/Generator->TS30->Main Panel Main->Main Panel Inverter->Sub-panel Main->Sub-panel Kit/Bed/TV
Shore/Generator->TS30->Sub-panel Microwave

Would it not require to move the Inverter directly to sub-panel? Also, where would the ATS would go? Per https://www.magnum-dimensions.com/si...W-TS15-Web.pdf it is only 15A transfer switch, would it not limit entire RV to 15A?



BRAIN STORMING

Shore/Generator->TS30->CSW TS-15 ATS with Inverter>Main Panel <-I don't believe this would pass through 30A from Shore/Generator

Shore/Generator->TS30#1->TS30#2/Inverter->Main panel - this would only give max 15A, but I can utilize Mini-EMS (Energy Management System) to set the max to 15A service.

The idea is - (to be honest I may be completely out of my mind with this):

• If 30A Shore/Generator provides power to TS30#1, power is sent to second ATS TS30#2 to Shore input line and Inverter hooked-up to Generator on the TS30#2
  • If Shore/Generator is ON, it would pass trough 30A to main panel
  • If Shore/Generator is OFF, and Inverter is ON it would pass 15A to main panel. Inverter would power entire RV; but I can utilize Mini-EMS (Energy Management System) to set the max to 15A service and let it manage power. I would also ensure all my non-essential appliances are off; e.g. no AC is running, fridge is on Propane

[Jlawles2]

Yoda Keith, you take a DPDT relay and wire the generator to the normally open contacts, the other system gets wired to the normally closed contacts. https://www.grainger.com/product/5X8...E&gclsrc=aw.ds

The relay activation voltage comes from jumping the incoming power from the generator to the coils. Any time generator power is present, the relay goes active and kicks open the other feed. When you loose generator feed, the coils loose power and open up. Call it a "Self activated latching relay" more or less.

I have not done this, but have considered something similar for other uses. Someone here with much more experience will probably chime in and tell me if / how it is not correct.