Changing to Lithium Batteries

[timelinex]

I have a 2021 381m and 2 standard batteries are toast. I had to wake up 3x overnight while boondocking to turn generator on for a little bit so they don't go below 12v. I have a few questions that I bolded in the post.

I'm torn on whether I should convert to LiFePO4 and what kind to get.

I have been using my trailer a few times a year at campgrounds (hence why I never noticed the bad batteries). We just boondocked for the first time and liked it so I imagine that will happen a few times a year now. So it's not like I NEED lithium batteries, but honestly keeping up with the water refilling has been a pain in the butt and possibly even what killed the batteries (it gets to 120 degrees here in PHX). Thoughts on this if it was you deciding?

Does my 2021 381m already come with everything needed for me to just drop the batteries in or do I have to change chargers or cables/wires?

I understand that with batteries you get what you pay for. But I'm wondering with how much I use them, what difference I will feel between the higher and lower quality batteries? For example I know Battle Born is $800+, while Ampere Time on Amazon is $350. HUGE difference in price.

Thanks guys!

[Guest]

timelinex , TucsonJim Can best answer your questions in how well his Lithium batteries have held up in the desert heat. Each battery manufacturer will provide specifications on temperature usage and storage. Lithium batteries are dropping sharply in price so I would look at the warranty and make the call if you want to save some cash. I use an AIMs battery and could not be happier with its performance and there are many other good brands out there as well. We ran our generator for 5 hours each day in 2.5hr shifts so we could get through the night while running heat at 68F in late fall and early spring. Next morning the battery was at 12.0V so we began with running the generator.

We became tired of this in a hurry and moved to lithium with a dedicated lithium converter.

Jim

[acoleman43]

Thoughts on this if it was you deciding?

Your batteries will likely need to be replaced every 2 years. Lithium will last 5+ years without the maintenance. In my opinion it's worth it. BUT, I would still remove them if they were being subjected to very high temperatures while in storage.

do I have to change chargers or cables/wires?

with a 2021 model it is possible your charger is not optimized for lithium batteries meaning you'll probably wnat to upgrade your charger to a lithium compatible charger. To know for sure, look at the exact model number of your main distribution panel and look it up online.

with how much I use them, what difference I will feel between the higher and lower quality batteries?

Battle Born are very nice batteries which dictates the higher cost. For your use I think a lower cost battery will do just fine. Will Prowse does a lot of testing on batteries. He recommends SOK batteries as the best value, Ampere Time as the best budget battery and Battle Born as the best battery.

[Country Campers]

I would go with the Lithium for sure. You have more battery power and increased time usage compared to lead acid and with no water levels to worry about. I like the SOK as well but the Lion Energy batteries from Costco have worked great and about the same cost. Even if you have a lithium compatible charger from the factory I would add a dedicated lithium charger in the front storage near the batteries. This makes the wire run shorter and most lithium batteries can take more amperage when charging than the stock converter will output, this is key when you need to run the genny to charge the batteries you will need less time. Dabbling in the lithium world can quickly enter you into the rabbit hole of all things lithium, try to think of a few things like if you will boondock more if you have the capabilities, if so you may want a larger battery bank, 2 will get you a couple days depending on usage, 4 will extend your time without running the genny. If you will not boondock more than you have then 1 or 2 batteries would be all that you would need and again depending on what you want to do.

Brian

[emclay54]

Hello all:

I have a question related to this topic. I am also looking to upgrade to LiFePO4 batteries. I have a Grand Design 150 Series 273mk fifth wheel. It has a DFCO 55 amp converter charger that only works for AGM/Lead Acid batteries. It charges at 13.6 volts. For most Lithium batteries, this is the At Rest voltage. Battery life is significantly improved if your SOC is maintained between 20% and 80%. A lithium charger, as we know, charges at 14.4 to 14.6 volts. This is required to balance the cells in the lithium battery in order to keep the batteries running at optimum levels. My question is this: If I have a separate lithium charger that I can add and plug in separately to top off the lithium charge, can the existing converter charge keep the battery at the 20-80% SOC? Also, if I use the Battery Disconnect in the pass through storage bay, does this completely isolate that battery, even from the converter charger? Can I plug into campground power and leave the battery disconnected? IMHO, this would allow the lithium charger to be the only source of the battery charge and balance the cells, as required, and be able to be used with the AC Power from the campground connection. I've heard that I can even use the plug in lithium charger even if the converter is still running.

Any advice with regard to this possible charging path would be greatly appreciated. I am trying to minimize the output of cash to completely convert to the lithium battery and a lithium converter charger, which can be over $1,000.

emclay54

[howson]

Hello all:

I have a question related to this topic. I am also looking to upgrade to LiFePO4 batteries. I have a Grand Design 150 Series 273mk fifth wheel. It has a DFCO 55 amp converter charger that only works for AGM/Lead Acid batteries. It charges at 13.6 volts. For most Lithium batteries, this is the At Rest voltage. Battery life is significantly improved if your SOC is maintained between 20% and 80%. A lithium charger, as we know, charges at 14.4 to 14.6 volts. This is required to balance the cells in the lithium battery in order to keep the batteries running at optimum levels. My question is this: If I have a separate lithium charger that I can add and plug in separately to top off the lithium charge, can the existing converter charge keep the battery at the 20-80% SOC? Also, if I use the Battery Disconnect in the pass through storage bay, does this completely isolate that battery, even from the converter charger? Can I plug into campground power and leave the battery disconnected? IMHO, this would allow the lithium charger to be the only source of the battery charge and balance the cells, as required, and be able to be used with the AC Power from the campground connection. I've heard that I can even use the plug in lithium charger even if the converter is still running.

Any advice with regard to this possible charging path would be greatly appreciated. I am trying to minimize the output of cash to completely convert to the lithium battery and a lithium converter charger, which can be over $1,000.

emclay54

Short answer: no. Get a lithium-capable charger if you're going to get the lithium battery. Disconnect and do not use the old charger.

There's a lot on the forum on this topic already. Search by using Google or DuckDuckGo using the search phrase lithium charger site:gdrvowners.com There will be a LOT of threads to read in the search returns.

Howard

[old brown]

2022 303rls:
Most of what I do is boondocking, I have a 12v fridge and a couple weeks ago cool temps at night with furnace running. I converted to two BattleBorn 100aH batteries and I love how well they perform. I have the PD9260 Progressive Dynamics converter, they make a charge Wizard that supports Lifepo4 in a manual mode, which is really easy to do and cost $16. The Furrion solar controller has the Lifep04 option and when I do run the generator on the snowy days, I just let the converter support 14.4 volts. They make a true lithium converter, but I struggle with the need with options I have.

[Jlawles2]

You may consider something like https://www.amazon.com/Flow-Rite-MP2...a-449340766479 if you choose to stick with the lead acid batteries.

We choose not to boondock (there is not enough battery power in the world for the necessary appliances she needs in the AM to get ready). So I stick with Lead acid and check my battery often

[Guest]

Hello all:

I have a question related to this topic. I am also looking to upgrade to LiFePO4 batteries. I have a Grand Design 150 Series 273mk fifth wheel. It has a DFCO 55 amp converter charger that only works for AGM/Lead Acid batteries. It charges at 13.6 volts. For most Lithium batteries, this is the At Rest voltage. Battery life is significantly improved if your SOC is maintained between 20% and 80%. A lithium charger, as we know, charges at 14.4 to 14.6 volts. This is required to balance the cells in the lithium battery in order to keep the batteries running at optimum levels. My question is this: If I have a separate lithium charger that I can add and plug in separately to top off the lithium charge, can the existing converter charge keep the battery at the 20-80% SOC? Also, if I use the Battery Disconnect in the pass through storage bay, does this completely isolate that battery, even from the converter charger? Can I plug into campground power and leave the battery disconnected? IMHO, this would allow the lithium charger to be the only source of the battery charge and balance the cells, as required, and be able to be used with the AC Power from the campground connection. I've heard that I can even use the plug in lithium charger even if the converter is still running.

Any advice with regard to this possible charging path would be greatly appreciated. I am trying to minimize the output of cash to completely convert to the lithium battery and a lithium converter charger, which can be over $1,000.

emclay54

Your spot on in increasing battery longevity by operating between 20% - 80% SOC. The standard converter will fall short of 100% SOC where on occasion it is critically important to fully charge to 100% SOC since the lithium battery will balance all its cells when fully charged to 100%. So at some point a lithium dedicated charger is important. Can you operate both chargers at the same time? Not really since one can affect the other where peak voltage could trip up one of the charge sources. Having stated that, some use solar where where the solar controller and converter will compete so it would be best IMO to pick one of those. I want to add that long term storage is also important where lithium batteries should be stored at 50% SOC. Battle Born will recommend to store at 100% where this is simply incorrect. I called them and they admitted 50% would be ideal where I was pleased they agreed with standard practices. A friendly conversation as well.

Jim

[Guest]

You may consider something like https://www.amazon.com/Flow-Rite-MP2...a-449340766479 if you choose to stick with the lead acid batteries.

We choose not to boondock (there is not enough battery power in the world for the necessary appliances she needs in the AM to get ready). So I stick with Lead acid and check my battery often

Boondocking requires a generator which is the most important accessory IMO. Now boondocking in 100F can be an issue where we also do not do this since the wife will insist on AC. So we boondock in the early spring and late fall where the nights are cool and the generator can meet our needs at around 1 hour each morning for the next 24hrs. All on a single Lithium battery and 60amp lithium charger.

Jim

[timelinex]

Alright guys. Thank you for all the input. After reading all the comments, some other forums and threads, I am convinced on Lithium since I can get the cheaper ones (Ampere) for ~350 a piece.

My converter is WF-9855 which I believe is not optimized for Lithium. So looks like I will eventually need to get that. Otherwise, it sounds like it's completely plug and play?

One thing I'm just a little concerned about is the 32 degree charging. I don't plan on ever going in the REALLY cold, but when we went it was probably as cold as we would go and it dipped down to about 28-30 degrees in the middle of the night. Is this actually a concern since the batteries are inside the front compartment. As far as I know the underbelly does get some residual heat from the furnace? But even if it didn't, I would assume it would be 5-10 degrees warmer inside regardless? Lastly, as long as the batteries are good, it's not like I will have to charge them in the middle of the night when it's coldest anyways. Any experience or input on this?

Any recommendations for a converter?

Last question is whether there is any reason to get 2 100ah over 1 200ah version?

[ncitro]

timelinex I would not count on much furnace heat getting from the underbelly into the front bay. That said you're right you can usually (check your particular batteries specs) discharge quite a bit lower, but charging is not recommended before freezing. I rely on my battery bms to manage this, not sure if that battery has built in low temp cutoff out not.

For converters I know several who use PowerMax, also Progressive Dynamics. Also if you're doing an inverter charger than can sometimes be configured for lithium removing the need for a converter (most of us here with the Victron Multiplus do this).

My only thought on the number of batteries is less connections obviously, but they usually limit the max current you can draw. This can be an issue with larger inverters, so multiple batteries give you more max current draw (the Multiplus 3000va can draw up to 300A, so you'd need three batteries).

[acoleman43]

timelinex I'll add to ncitro comment above.

If you're concerned with low temps and batteries, get a battery warmer for your batteries. Another option is to place the lithium batteries inside. Lithium batteries do not need to vent so they can go inside. I like the battery warmer idea better.

When I installed a Multiplus, I removed my converter/charger. I no longer have a converter because it is not really needed with my setup.

I agree with Neil. More batteries allow better discharge rates. Less large batteries are usually a little more cost effective and can be more compact. So it depends on your needs/wants.

[emclay54]

To timelinex:

"One thing I'm just a little concerned about is the 32 degree charging. I don't plan on ever going in the REALLY cold, but when we went it was probably as cold as we would go and it dipped down to about 28-30 degrees in the middle of the night. Is this actually a concern since the batteries are inside the front compartment. As far as I know the underbelly does get some residual heat from the furnace? But even if it didn't, I would assume it would be 5-10 degrees warmer inside regardless? Lastly, as long as the batteries are good, it's not like I will have to charge them in the middle of the night when it's coldest anyways. Any experience or input on this?"

Take a look at Renogy batteries. They have a product with a self-heating function that may address your concern.

[Guest]

The best option to maximize efficiency is to move the batteries to an area in the coach that we ourselves find comfortable. Or the passthrough where some heat will still be present from a heated rig. Why use the batteries power to heat itself?

Jim