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  • #46
    Cate&Rob -- so I started back at square 1. Usually when doing something new (to me) I find out it's me making a mistake that's the issue, so I double-checked my process.

    Sure enough, I was checking the tank pressure with water pressure applied to the camper. Dumb--the value I was reading was not the pre-charge value (what I was attempting to measure). After draining the lines (removing water pressure) I found the pre-charge was only 4 psi. Doh!

    Set the pre-charge (again) to 58 psi (correctly, this time) and restarted the test.
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    2017 Ford F-350 DRW, '19 315RLTSPlus

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    • #47
      Guys,

      I understand what your doing, I just do not understand why? Water will expand in a closed system where the T&P valve is there to protect the system. If the flexible hose does not have a pressure rating to handle normal operating pressures, then the hose is the primary issue. My hot water tank has no flexible hose where heating of a flexible hose would also be a concern if its not rated for normal operating temperatures.

      Jim

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      • #48
        Originally posted by MidwestCamper View Post
        Guys,

        I understand what your doing, I just do not understand why? Water will expand in a closed system where the T&P valve is there to protect the system. If the flexible hose does not have a pressure rating to handle normal operating pressures, then the hose is the primary issue. My hot water tank has no flexible hose where heating of a flexible hose would also be a concern if its not rated for normal operating temperatures.

        Jim
        The same reason they put an expansion tank on a home's system, Jim. There should be a route for the increased water pressure to go, not rely on a safety mechanism to kick in. I believe the RV's T&P will activate at 150 psi. Obviously the system is not getting to that value (and certainly do not want it to ever get that high!), but I was shocked when the pressure gauge installed on the Nautilus Panel went off-scale high ( > 70 psi, exact value unknown).

        What I think happens is the water heater cycling compromises the system's integrity over time due to "oil canning". As I speculated earlier in this thread in addition to the incorrect connection of soft hose-to-pex (as identified by Rob) I think the lack of an expansion tank beyond what is provided for at the top of the Atwood tank to absorb pressure is a contributor to leaks in our campers. But that's conjecture--I don't know that for a fact.

        Besides--look at all the stuff about plumbing that I'm learning.

        Howard
        Forum moderators are not GD employees--we are volunteers and owners presumably just like yourself. Unless specifically mentioned otherwise, we have nothing to gain should you choose to purchase a product or engage a service we discuss on this forum.

        2017 Ford F-350 DRW, '19 315RLTSPlus

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        • #49
          Cate&Rob
          At the 20 minute mark the gauge on the Nautilus Panel showed > 60 psi. The port on the accumulator tank measured 65 psi.

          Click image for larger version

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          Forum moderators are not GD employees--we are volunteers and owners presumably just like yourself. Unless specifically mentioned otherwise, we have nothing to gain should you choose to purchase a product or engage a service we discuss on this forum.

          2017 Ford F-350 DRW, '19 315RLTSPlus

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          • #50
            Looks like it is working as planned.
            Ted
            2021 Reflection 310RLS
            2020 F350 PS,CC,LB,SRW

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            • #51
              Originally posted by howson View Post

              The same reason they put an expansion tank on a home's system, Jim. There should be a route for the increased water pressure to go, not rely on a safety mechanism to kick in. I believe the RV's T&P will activate at 150 psi. Obviously the system is not getting to that value (and certainly do not want it to ever get that high!), but I was shocked when the pressure gauge installed on the Nautilus Panel went off-scale high ( > 70 psi, exact value unknown).

              What I think happens is the water heater cycling compromises the system's integrity over time due to "oil canning". As I speculated earlier in this thread in addition to the incorrect connection of soft hose-to-pex (as identified by Rob) I think the lack of an expansion tank beyond what is provided for at the top of the Atwood tank to absorb pressure is a contributor to leaks in our campers. But that's conjecture--I don't know that for a fact.

              Besides--look at all the stuff about plumbing that I'm learning.

              Howard
              Howard,

              The quantity of water in a home (my tank is 50 gal) is vastly higher compared to an RV, with no air pocket and the lines expand very little. And there is a T&P valve. Interesting what you guys are doing but I'll rely on the T&P (pressure relieve valve) to do its job in my RV. However, I would like to know what the rating is on the flexible hose on the outlet of my pump.

              Jim

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              • #52
                I went and looked at the layline on the hose in my trailer. 80psi max! That is disappointing.

                Click image for larger version

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                Last edited by TedS; 04-14-2021, 09:53 AM.
                Ted
                2021 Reflection 310RLS
                2020 F350 PS,CC,LB,SRW

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                • #53
                  Originally posted by MidwestCamper View Post
                  The quantity of water in a home (my tank is 50 gal) is vastly higher compared to an RV, with no air pocket and the lines expand very little.
                  Because there's an expansion tank connected to your home, Jim! If not, perhaps your home's system is old enough that the check valve that keeps water from going back into the city system is not installed. If there's a check valve but no expansion tank, I'll wager the plumbing in your house is installed incorrectly. (Says the "expert", lol.)

                  What may be missing is my emphasis on what I believe is causing leaks: It's not the hose, it's the connections. Well..except for the documented cases of the hot water line bursting at the tank (as shown by Rob in one of his documents). The vast majority of leaks are at the connections. Minimizing the expansion and contraction and pressure on these connections can only improve the system integrity.

                  Quite OK if you disagree. I think at this point we're close to

                  Howard

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                  2017 Ford F-350 DRW, '19 315RLTSPlus

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                  • #54
                    Originally posted by TedS View Post
                    I went and looked at the layline on the hose in my trailer. 80psi max! That is disappointing.
                    Yikes! I didn't know that.

                    FYI, at the 40 minute mark the heater stopped drawing power (water was max temp) and the reading at the accumulator was still 65 psi. I think you're right--working as intended.
                    Last edited by howson; 04-14-2021, 03:12 PM. Reason: Removed info that just would confuse the issue...
                    Forum moderators are not GD employees--we are volunteers and owners presumably just like yourself. Unless specifically mentioned otherwise, we have nothing to gain should you choose to purchase a product or engage a service we discuss on this forum.

                    2017 Ford F-350 DRW, '19 315RLTSPlus

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                    • #55
                      Originally posted by TedS View Post
                      I went and looked at the layline on the hose in my trailer. 80psi max! That is disappointing.

                      Click image for larger version  Name:	20210414_083652.jpg Views:	0 Size:	91.9 KB ID:	50702
                      Ted,

                      This seems to be the real issue. The hose in my rig is white braided where I'll see if there is any information on this hose. The entire system should be able to handle the relieve pressure of the T&P plus a safety factor.

                      Wonder what GDRV has to say about the low pressure hose?

                      Jim

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                      • #56
                        Originally posted by howson View Post

                        Because there's an expansion tank connected to your home, Jim! If not, perhaps your home's system is old enough that the check valve that keeps water from going back into the city system is not installed. If there's a check valve but no expansion tank, I'll wager the plumbing in your house is installed incorrectly. (Says the "expert", lol.)

                        What may be missing is my emphasis on what I believe is causing leaks: It's not the hose, it's the connections. Well..except for the documented cases of the hot water line bursting at the tank (as shown by Rob in one of his documents). The vast majority of leaks are at the connections. Minimizing the expansion and contraction and pressure on these connections can only improve the system integrity.

                        Quite OK if you disagree. I think at this point we're close to

                        Howard
                        Howard,

                        I'm not in disagreement with what your doing. I'm wondering why? My home is on a well which has a check valve and a very large accumulator to prevent pump short cycling. To your point this tank also functions as an expansion tank, where I'm dealing with 50 gal of water. I believe the root cause for blown hoses in our rigs is a underrated braided hose which Ted has shown. You always do great work but I believe we should focus on the weakness rather than installing devices to help cover up the weakness. The accumulator would help with faucet life cycle if that's important.

                        Can you ask GDRV for feedback on the underrated plastic lines in our rigs?

                        Jim
                        Last edited by Guest; 04-14-2021, 11:08 AM.

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                        • #57
                          It looks like Howard's expansion tank is working as intended. I recall that I observed system pressure in the 70 psi range, with soft hose in the system (as the "expansion" element) and before installing the accumulator tank.

                          Pressure rise due to water heating in my "all Pex" system now reaches a max of about 50 psi with the larger accumulator tank. This is from a 45 psi pump cut out pressure, so + 5 psi. (I purposely set my pump pressure a little lower than the factory 55 psi to ease the load on the pump as it approaches cut out pressure) This also matches the 45 psi regulator that I use on the city water supply.

                          It is a well documented maintenance procedure to re-establish the expansion air dome at the top of the water heater. When the air in this space absorbs into the water, the pressure relief valve begins to open as a result of heating water with no expansion space. This means that system pressure is reaching the 150 psi opening pressure. Well beyond the pressure rating noted on the hose.

                          The attached picture happened late one night while camping. This was a major incentive for me to remove all the soft hose from my RV water system.
                          This pressure cycling probably also has a lot to do with the soft hose to Pex fitting drip leaks where these connections work loose.

                          Rob

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                          Cate & Rob
                          (with Border Collies Molly & Angel + Kitties Hazel & Elsie)
                          2015 Reflection 303RLS
                          2022 F350 Diesel CC SB SRW Lariat
                          Bayham, Ontario, Canada

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                          • #58
                            Great info Rob. I run a regulator too where we cannot get a good shower unless I'm adjusted from 50-60 psi on city water if that's possible. The 1.8-2.0gpm Oxygenics shower heads are rated to flow those rates at 80psi. We currently have no issues with shower quality on the pump
                            You guys have definitely caught my attention on the hose issue where I'm shocked that the factory installed hose has a lower pressure rating than the T&P. I'm going to focus on that and add the accumulator at some point to help reduce pump cycling.

                            Jim

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                            • #59
                              Originally posted by TedS View Post
                              I went and looked at the layline on the hose in my trailer. 80psi max! That is disappointing.

                              Click image for larger version

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                              Ted,

                              Here is some RecPro line that is good for 180F and 150psi.

                              https://www.recpro.com/rv-pressurized-hot-water-line/

                              Jim

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                              • #60
                                Guest , good to know.
                                Ted
                                2021 Reflection 310RLS
                                2020 F350 PS,CC,LB,SRW

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