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RV Shocks. Who is using them and how do you like them?

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  • EMetz582
    replied
    Take a look at other trailers going down the road, watch the axles, not the wheels. Look how much vibration exists. Then look how much bounce is allowed. Shocks dampen all of this, and get the trailer tracking solid as a rock. If you have the time and money, shocks are a significant update for your trailer that will not improve towing from a drivers perspective, but from a trailer and tire life perspective.

    I have installed Lippert shock kits on two TT's, one being a 2017 2800bh, with excellent results.

    The "older" GD trailers with Lippert frames and Schwintek slides are compatible with the LIppert shock kit.

    Edit;
    Dexter frames with more standard slides are compatible with Roadmaster and Joyride shock kit...but may require mild mods.

    Roadmaster and JoyRide are practically the same design FYI.

    I have a Roadmaster 2460 system on hand right now, ready for installation on my 2020 2800bh in Spring. It will not be a quick job like the Lippert kits were.
    Last edited by EMetz582; 02-11-2020, 02:14 PM.

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  • Guest
    replied
    JeffC,

    Rob is the shock tuning/vehicle dynamics engineer and would have some input here.

    From my perspective, our RVs do not respond the same as a motor vehicle where the tires really should not leave the ground. Seldom does this happen with such a heavily loaded rig. To your point, the damping on the F150 or F450 would also not be the same loaded as compared to being empty but some damping in both cases would be present so maybe the vehicle shocks are a best case for both conditions? I'm also interested in these to control unwanted body roll and can only hope they may help for those sinusoidal roads in a couple places in Michigan.

    Jim

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  • JeffC
    replied
    I have been interested in adding shocks to my 310. After reading that the shocks are the same whether your rig weighs 12k or 20k lbs., I am convinced that there has been no real study made on the effectiveness of this solution.

    Shocks that are either overmatched for weight or too small to handle the weight do not give me a good feeling. Too stiff and there is zero benefit (and some detriment) to them and too soft and they are severely limited in their usefulness.

    Imagine that they used the same shocks for an F150 and an F450. Would you think that is well thought out or appropriate?

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  • drifterranch
    replied
    Originally posted by Cate&Rob View Post
    The Roadmaster system looks very similar to the JoyRider system. Both bolt to the lower flange of the frame I beam (or the square tube welded under the I beam on some trailers). Etrailer has a Youtube video of installation on the Roadmaster system on a Solitude. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Q6b9GdHPvgw It does look like Roadmaster may have more lateral offset to control side-to-side sway than Joyrider. They also seem to offer one calibration of damper for any size trailer. This still doesn't make sense to me. I have not looked at a price comparison, but from the parts list, I don't know how one would choose between Roadmaster and Joyrider. I don't care for the large hole that the installers have cut in the coroplast for the Roadmaster installation . . . I think that I would avoid that. The youtube video does show before-and-after inside video.

    Rob
    I agree I would not cut the coroplast that far back. I like that it is 15 degrees. I am curious what the rear suspension of the ford truck shock angle is.

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  • Cate&Rob
    replied
    The Roadmaster system looks very similar to the JoyRider system. Both bolt to the lower flange of the frame I beam (or the square tube welded under the I beam on some trailers). Etrailer has a Youtube video of installation on the Roadmaster system on a Solitude. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Q6b9GdHPvgw It does look like Roadmaster may have more lateral offset to control side-to-side sway than Joyrider. They also seem to offer one calibration of damper for any size trailer. This still doesn't make sense to me. I have not looked at a price comparison, but from the parts list, I don't know how one would choose between Roadmaster and Joyrider. I don't care for the large hole that the installers have cut in the coroplast for the Roadmaster installation . . . I think that I would avoid that. The youtube video does show before-and-after inside video.

    Rob

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  • Guest
    replied
    The roadmaster and the joyrider systems are one and the same according to the inventor.

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  • drifterranch
    replied
    Originally posted by MidwestCamper View Post
    Well now that the ice next to the Imagine has melted, I ventured outside and took some measurements. The Lippert system requires a minimum of 4 inches of clearance between the tire and the frame. I have 3.5 inches. This is too bad since after tossing this around I was leaning on the Lippert system due to their upper mounting method which I prefer. If the height from the frame to axle is low, the Lippert shocks could be mounted at a less than optimal angle. To overcome this I was planning on modifying the Lippert U bolt supplied axle bracket to be similar to the joyrider system. This would incorporate the best mounting of both types of systems.

    For the joyrider system. I'm not liking the drilling of the I beam flange but since my Imagine has a square channel welded to the bottom of the frame, this is not an issue. The 0.200 inch thickness of this channel is however a concern, since I'm not comfortable using the self tapping bolts in such thin material. Three ways to overcome this.

    1) Use the self tapping bolts and diagonally weld the upper shock bracket to the square channel. This would provide the added strength in mounting the upper bracket to the 0.200" thick channel.

    2) Carefully craft a rectangular threaded plate to match the upper bracket of the joyrider system. Predrill the channel, then with great pain and diligence, feed this plate into the square channel to bolt the bracket.

    3) Another approach is to drill a single hole in the channel, feed in the plate in without tapping it, weld the plate into the frame through the hole, then use the self tapping bolts to connect the upper bracket.

    The other small issue is the drain from the front tanks will need an offset to clear the shock bracket since the joyriders are mounted inside the frame.

    Did I state I wanted to install shocks on my TT? Lol

    Jim
    Have you considered the road master comfort ride system. I believe I am going with that one.

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  • Guest
    replied
    Well now that the ice next to the Imagine has melted, I ventured outside and took some measurements. The Lippert system requires a minimum of 4 inches of clearance between the tire and the frame. I have 3.5 inches. This is too bad since after tossing this around I was leaning on the Lippert system due to their upper mounting method which I prefer. If the height from the frame to axle is low, the Lippert shocks could be mounted at a less than optimal angle. To overcome this I was planning on modifying the Lippert U bolt supplied axle bracket to be similar to the joyrider system. This would incorporate the best mounting of both types of systems.

    For the joyrider system. I'm not liking the drilling of the I beam flange but since my Imagine has a square channel welded to the bottom of the frame, this is not an issue. The 0.200 inch thickness of this channel is however a concern, since I'm not comfortable using the self tapping bolts in such thin material. Three ways to overcome this.

    1) Use the self tapping bolts and diagonally weld the upper shock bracket to the square channel. This would provide the added strength in mounting the upper bracket to the 0.200" thick channel.

    2) Carefully craft a rectangular threaded plate to match the upper bracket of the joyrider system. Predrill the channel, then with great pain and diligence, feed this plate into the square channel to bolt the bracket.

    3) Another approach is to drill a single hole in the channel, feed in the plate in without tapping it, weld the plate into the frame through the hole, then use the self tapping bolts to connect the upper bracket.

    The other small issue is the drain from the front tanks will need an offset to clear the shock bracket since the joyriders are mounted inside the frame.

    Did I state I wanted to install shocks on my TT? Lol

    Jim
    Last edited by Guest; 02-04-2020, 07:14 PM.

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  • Guest
    replied
    Rob,

    I'm hoping to get accelerometers to measure the before and after, but this is borrowed equipment so I can't guarantee I can get what I need. At a minimum, I will get video. I agree a soft suspension is good, but undamped, it can result In some other bad effects such as body roll, and spring yielding due to overtravel in jounce which the older Imagine line had suffered from. My approach is to keep the soft springs and dampen their movement rather than to move up to the 2200lb springs. If the shocks do not do what I am hoping to achieve, I have the option of moving up to the 2200lb springs since I have three inch axles. So my Imagine with the older spring system is a special case of sorts. Somewhere online is a video of two guys actually riding inside a trailer and using their buttometers, they felt there was a noticeable difference. This may be worth something or not.
    ,
    It would be great if we also had some folks on the forum who has installed the dampers to provide feedback on their results.

    Below is some history in what some of us have experienced with an overly soft suspension.

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ERN3OIU4TQ4

    Jim
    Last edited by Guest; 01-27-2020, 08:13 AM.

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  • Cate&Rob
    replied
    Guest Hi Jim,

    I'm not sure that "things left on the counter don't move around as much" is validation of ride improvement by adding dampers. We travel the same Michigan roads every year and every time we open the trailer, we are greeted with a new experience. The most significant difference, trip-to-trip, is braking. An "emergency braking" event has far more affect on trailer contents than any road surface inputs.
    Wouldn't it be great to have accelerometer data to actually know what we are talking about .

    "Soft" suspension is a good thing . . . not a bad thing. If your suspension is absorbing road impacts with extra travel, this means that the trailer is getting a smoother ride. Adding dampers will likely cause more impact loads into the trailer frame during jounce inputs.

    Rob
    Last edited by Cate&Rob; 01-27-2020, 03:39 PM.

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  • Guest
    replied
    Rob,

    I have similar thoughts where if I look into the install, I cannot have a shock laying over due to the type of bracketry they are using. But I am curious why Lippert mounts their shocks in a direction of the axle articulation. Do they know something or not? Yes the video is amazing. LOL. Was just thinking about my 2x2 channel that's welded to my I beam so I will need to go out and look at the rig in the snow. If I went with the joyriders, I would be mounting the bracket to the thin 2x2 channel.

    My rig with its soft 1750lb springs does have some vertical motion on the sinusoidal road conditions in places in Michigan and this motion gets transferred to the truck. Otherwise the rig rides extremely nice. According to testimony (as well as Ed above) on YouTube, folks that have them feel they made a difference but how much?

    Jim

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  • Cate&Rob
    replied
    Guest Hi Jim,

    The motion of the axles is going to be primarily vertical, controlled by the fixed distance between the front axle and the front spring hanger or the rear axle and the rear spring hanger . . . regardless of what gyrations the centre equalizer is going through. (I am still amazed at how the front axle lifts off the ground under heavy braking ! per that LCI video). The more angle from vertical of the damper, the less effective it will be in damping jounce (vertical) impacts.

    I have quoted my Dad more than once in these discussions . . . he often told me (usually when I had something in pieces all over his workbench ) "if it ain't broke, don't fix it". I don't see any undamped motion in my trailer that needs "fixing". I agree that intuitively, adding dampers should be a good thing, but I don't see any evidence of motion that needs damping.

    Wandering off into the technical details . . . a damper with too strong a jounce response transmits more impact load into the frame. Too strong a rebound response means that the axle is restrained from dropping into a road depression as fast as it needs too to absorb the load. The "one size fits all" designs from both Joy Rider and Lippert tells me the this idea is more "marketing" than it is "engineering".

    Rob

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  • Guest
    replied
    Rob,

    Thinking with your rig using the correct track system and having longer hangers you may be able to get a fairly straight shot on a Lippert shock mount. Not trying to talk you into the install, just curious what angle you would see due to the long hangers and the 2x2 channel. I'll need to measure the distance of my springs to the frame to get an idea of how this will look since I have the short hangers. Also need to see if I have the required 4 inches between the tire and the frame. Also, I also have the 2x2 square channel welded to the I beam where this is not all that thick, for instance on a joyrider install. Inserts? I'll get out tomorrow to look my rig over, but its too darn cold here in Michigan. Lol.
    Last edited by Guest; 01-26-2020, 09:02 PM.

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  • Guest
    replied
    Originally posted by Cate&Rob View Post

    Hi Jim,

    I didn't chime in on this because you were specifically looking for feedback from those who had installed dampers (shocks). This was high on my suspension "wish list" until I researched it a bit. I had the opportunity to discuss the Joyrider system with Sonny Dismuke (designer of the Joyrider product) at a Grand Design Rally, a few years ago.

    As you mention, I have some experience in damper tuning. On a car/truck, both jounce and rebound rates are tuned to the specific expectations of the vehicle. Corvette on one end of the scale and (old) Cadillac on the other end of the scale. I was surprised to learn from Sonny that the exact same damper is used on all Joyrider kits, regardless of sprung weight, unsprung weight or damping expectation. This doesn't make sense to me. Of all the kits, I do like the way the Joyrider product gets the damper as vertical as possible. This is the motion direction that (theoretically) needs to be damped. I don't like the way significant size holes are drilled in the lower flange of the trailer frame I beams. Most of the load carrying strength of these frames is in the lower flanges.

    So . . . I got Cate to video the side of the trailer in her mirror as we travelled a relatively rough (Michigan ) interstate. I have never been able to see the expected cycle of an un-damped suspension on our Reflection 5th wheel (like you would expect from a vehicle with worn shocks) in my mirror, so I thought that I would be able to see this more clearly by studying a video. It is just not there! I don't fully understand how the cushioned equalizer damps this out . . . but, it does.

    Bottom line . . . I decided not to drill significant size holes in my frame rails to install a "one size fits all" damper system to "fix" a problem that I can't see.

    Just my (somewhat experienced) 2 cents worth.

    Rob
    Rob,

    Your input is greatly appreciated. You found that the joyrider system uses the same shock for all applications and it looks like Lippert is doing the same. Not perfect where they are using a one fits all. I also have reservations in drilling the beam at the flange where Ed mentioned a new design. It would be great if they moved away from the flange drilling. Also have reservations on the Lippert mounting angles but am wondering if their intentions were to dampen vertically, but also to dampen the axle while in rotation when seeing a road input and also when braking? I believe the axles will move in a vertical direction when the input is the same on both axles. For an input on each axle such as a speed bump as an example, each axle would most likely move vertical as well as to rotate with the equalizer motion. But does the Lippert have enough damping at that angle to do any good?

    Thank you,

    Jim

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  • Guest
    replied
    Originally posted by Ed & Cathy K View Post
    I had the shocks ordered and waiting when I brought the rig home. Shocks were the first upgrade, I went with Joy Riders. I finished up the install late on a Saturday. A few parts were left over that was on the instructions. Sunday I took another look in the daylight and a nights sleep. I gave rvimprovementsystems a call expecting to leave a message about the extra parts. To my surprise Sonny answered the phone. All was well as I have a newer revised mounts that didn't require the parts, they had been accidentally packaged at the factory. On the trip home from the dealers one the sink covers ended up in the floor. After shocks I traveled the same road with a roll of paper towels on the island, and it didn't fall. We travel with the Keurig and ice maker on our hutch all the time with no problems.
    Ed,

    Your input is encouraging. Your statement on the revised mounting of the joyrider system.....what changed?

    Thank you,

    Jim
    Last edited by Guest; 01-26-2020, 11:29 AM.

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