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  • Break away switch and batteries

    In speaking with GD, I found out power should be shut down to the break away switch if the RV is kept on shore power while stored. Will pulling the battery cutoff in the basement cut power to the break away switch? We have been using the Imagine's refrigerator to hold some of the groceries which need to be kept cold. Or should I put a cutoff on the brake away?

    (MORE INFORMATION)

    I realize I missed putting in the reason for the question. The pin in the brake away switch is apparently fused in place. In talking with GD, somewhere along the line it may have been pulled then reinserted with power to the switch. The contacts can heat to over 175 F and the pin could have melted when pushed back in. GD is shipping a new switch to my home, so that will take care of that. I may have pulled it or, as it's parked in the driveway, it is possible one of the neighborhood kids was wondering what it did (coiled, springy cable connected to a pin, wonder what it does). But I'm trying to figure a way to isolate that circuit when the trailer is parked at home so if it does get pulled (accidently or otherwise) we don't go through having to replace it again.
    Last edited by Running from Gnats; 06-11-2020, 04:21 PM. Reason: Adding information I missed putting in the original question
    2020 F-250 Lariat 2WD SuperCrew 6.7L, Blue Ox SwayPro hitch w/ 1000lb bars
    2020 Imagine 2600RD w/ Road Armor + wet bolt suspension, Yakima Longhaul Bike Rack, MicroAir EasyStart 364 for AC, Lion Energy 105 amp Lithiium Ion X2
    Amateur Radio Call N9XGZ
    FMCA # 489460

  • #2
    Originally posted by Running from Gnats View Post
    In speaking with GD, I found out power should be shut down to the break away switch if the RV is kept on shore power while stored. Will pulling the battery cutoff in the basement cut power to the break away switch? We have been using the Imagine's refrigerator to hold some of the groceries which need to be kept cold. Or should I put a cutoff on the brake away?

    Did you ask why? If you use the Imagine cutoff switch it will no longer keep your battery charged and your battery will drain down after a few days.

    I've had my imagine on shoreline power without cutting anything off for the last 3 months or so.
    Charles and Susan
    2021 Ram 3500 6.4 Hemi, 4x4 CCSB
    Andersen Hitch
    2021 Reflection 337rls

    Comment


    • #3
      Originally posted by Running from Gnats View Post
      In speaking with GD, I found out power should be shut down to the break away switch if the RV is kept on shore power while stored. Will pulling the battery cutoff in the basement cut power to the break away switch? We have been using the Imagine's refrigerator to hold some of the groceries which need to be kept cold. Or should I put a cutoff on the brake away?
      On my Imagine, the break away pin for the brakes is directly connected to the battery at the frame mounted breaker. And this is on the battery side, so this breaker is not used for this circuit but rather its just used as a junction block. If the pin has not been pulled there will be no current draw to the brakes since this switch is either fully off with the pin in or fully applied with the pin out. Your original wiring will maintain power to this switch (which has no draw) and possibly to other items in the rig such as the radio memory, CO and Propane alarms. This current draw is typically around 0.4 amps.


      With my new wiring, this switch will have power to the input side only if the battery switch is turned on. This was not deliberate but just how this worked out when I powered both 8 AWG wires on one side of the switch and the main battery cable to the other side. To protect these circuits, I installed a 30 amp breaker in the docking station.

      Jim
      Last edited by Guest; 06-11-2020, 01:36 PM.

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      • #4
        Originally posted by Running from Gnats View Post
        In speaking with GD, I found out power should be shut down to the break away switch if the RV is kept on shore power while stored. Will pulling the battery cutoff in the basement cut power to the break away switch? We have been using the Imagine's refrigerator to hold some of the groceries which need to be kept cold. Or should I put a cutoff on the brake away?
        I would really challenge the logic of this advice. Putting another cutoff switch to remember to turn on to enable the emergency brake apply would not be wise (at least for me) The only reason I can think of for this advice is to prevent someone from enabling the brakes by pulling the break-away pin as a malicious act. There is no reason to keep the RV on shore power while in storage, if the battery is disconnected. A completely disconnected battery will stay charged for months.

        Rob
        Cate & Rob
        (with Border Collies Molly & Angel + Kitties Hazel & Elsie)
        2015 Reflection 303RLS
        2022 F350 Diesel CC SB SRW Lariat
        Bayham, Ontario, Canada

        Comment


        • #5
          I would not worry about it. As mentioned above the only reason would be if someone pulled the pin. If you are worried about someone doing that then you may try something different.

          Brian
          Brian & Michelle
          2018 Reflection 29RS
          2022 Chevy 3500HD

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          • #6
            Originally posted by ckreef View Post


            Did you ask why? If you use the Imagine cutoff switch it will no longer keep your battery charged and your battery will drain down after a few days.

            I've had my imagine on shoreline power without cutting anything off for the last 3 months or so.
            Except for running the refrigerator, batteries would be no issue if no shore power. I currently have 3 Lion Energy LiFePO4 batteries (3X105 watts) and they can take storage (without current draw) for more than a year.

            I realize I missed putting in the reason for the question. The pin in the brake away switch is apparently fused in place. In talking with GD, somewhere along the line it may have been pulled then reinserted with power to the switch. The contacts can heat to over 175 F and the pin could have melted when pushed back in. GD is shipping a new switch to my home, so that will take care of that. I may have pulled it or, as it's parked in the driveway, it is possible one of the neighborhood kids was wondering what it did (coiled, springy cable connected to a pin, wonder what it does). But I'm trying to figure a way to isolate that circuit when the trailer is parked at home so if it does get pulled (accidently or otherwise) we don't go through having to replace it again.
            2020 F-250 Lariat 2WD SuperCrew 6.7L, Blue Ox SwayPro hitch w/ 1000lb bars
            2020 Imagine 2600RD w/ Road Armor + wet bolt suspension, Yakima Longhaul Bike Rack, MicroAir EasyStart 364 for AC, Lion Energy 105 amp Lithiium Ion X2
            Amateur Radio Call N9XGZ
            FMCA # 489460

            Comment


            • #7
              Originally posted by Running from Gnats View Post

              Except for running the refrigerator, batteries would be no issue if no shore power. I currently have 3 Lion Energy LiFePO4 batteries (3X105 watts) and they can take storage (without current draw) for more than a year.

              I realize I missed putting in the reason for the question. The pin in the brake away switch is apparently fused in place. In talking with GD, somewhere along the line it may have been pulled then reinserted with power to the switch. The contacts can heat to over 175 F and the pin could have melted when pushed back in. GD is shipping a new switch to my home, so that will take care of that. I may have pulled it or, as it's parked in the driveway, it is possible one of the neighborhood kids was wondering what it did (coiled, springy cable connected to a pin, wonder what it does). But I'm trying to figure a way to isolate that circuit when the trailer is parked at home so if it does get pulled (accidently or otherwise) we don't go through having to replace it again.
              Defeating the switch is a relatively simple task--it's literally just a wire that has continuity when the pin is pulled. Break the wire in a fashion of your choosing and there's no possibility of the brakes engaging inadvertently.

              But this is a high-risk approach to the problem. I do not recommend modifying the emergency brake system. Forget once to re-engage the system prior to towing and that will be the one time you need the system to work. A lawyer's dream.

              I've often thought about the issue of having a "live" system that's activated with just the pull of the switch. With my electric over hydraulic disc brakes, pull the emergency pin and the hydraulic pump starts screaming. It will not turn off until power quits or the Hydrastar burns out.

              Perhaps an alternative to modifying the emergency brake wiring is to add a cover that goes over the entire breakaway assembly (including the "coiled, springy cable"). The cover could even have a hasp and lock. The only "problem" now is you don't have an emergency brake if the trailer starts to roll away when disconnected from the TV. But I'm thinking the cover won't go on until the camper is fully setup, chocks in place, stabilizers down, etc. The cover will have to be removed to install the cable to the TV.

              The chance of needing (let alone using) the emergency brake in a roll-away scenario after setting up I (hope) is remote. A child pulling the cable "just to see what it does" is much more likely, but that's an opinion. (Unless you had a trailer and lived around me when I was about 8!)
              Forum moderators are not GD employees--we are volunteers and owners presumably just like yourself. Unless specifically mentioned otherwise, we have nothing to gain should you choose to purchase a product or engage a service we discuss on this forum.

              2017 Ford F-350 DRW, '19 315RLTSPlus

              Comment


              • #8
                I don't see a need to pull power from the break away switch while on shore power unless the pin is pulled where full power would be applied to the brakes, but in my case where I am now wired through the battery switch there is no chance I would leave without the battery turned on. I travel with my refrigerator on and also can now monitor the battery while driving with the Victron. This may not be ok for some, but for me this is not an issue. However, having stated that I may run a dedicated lead up to the passthrough. Back when I was ill with cancer I did have my son in law pick up my rig so thinking others may not follow through with the battery switch, I may just run the wire.

                howson Howard, from your wiring diagrams it looks like your beak away switch has to run through your shutoff 1 - Full Disconnect battery switch. What's your opinion in doing this? I can also assume you would always travel with this switch in the ON position.


                Jim
                Last edited by Guest; 06-12-2020, 11:38 AM.

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                • #9
                  Breakaway switch systems are kept simple for a reason, reliability. Wired directly to the battery. My personal risk analysis says to leave that alone and not change it.

                  Having the switch fused: I had one rust out, when I did my annual brake test and pulled the switch out it just fell off and did not activate the brakes. Now that check is on my quarterly list.

                  Vandalism (inadvertent activation) Rather than put in a cut off switch that I would forget I would add a strong key ring loop to the peg, then put double SS carabiner on each end of the cord. Take the enticing dangly thing out of the equation and it's much less enticing. No cord, no brakes, easier to remember.
                  2017 Momentum 376, 2019 Ford F450
                  2022 Triumph Scrambler Motorcycle
                  E-bikes, Hobi Pedal Kayaks
                  Kota the dog and KC the Kitty Cat

                  Comment


                  • #10
                    Originally posted by d2reid View Post
                    Breakaway switch systems are kept simple for a reason, reliability. Wired directly to the battery. My personal risk analysis says to leave that alone and not change it.

                    Having the switch fused: I had one rust out, when I did my annual brake test and pulled the switch out it just fell off and did not activate the brakes. Now that check is on my quarterly list.

                    Vandalism (inadvertent activation) Rather than put in a cut off switch that I would forget I would add a strong key ring loop to the peg, then put double SS carabiner on each end of the cord. Take the enticing dangly thing out of the equation and it's much less enticing. No cord, no brakes, easier to remember.
                    Dallas,

                    All good points where I had really struggled with this when I installed my new Lithium system. GDRV wires this switch directly to the battery on the copper battery side of the frame mounted breaker, so there is no protection and for a reason of reliability as you stated.
                    When some of us move the battery to the passthrough, this becomes somewhat of a dilemma where the main wire that the battery was once connected is now fed from the other end. And in my case through a battery switch. Since this 8 AWG wire also needs to be protected a 30 amp water proof (correction: AUTO resettable) circuit breaker is used. IF I run the break away wire back into the passthrough to the positive bus bar, this circuit should not be protected where it would run under the coroplast and in close proximity to some self tapping screws and other potential hazards. And there are risks in doing that. So I felt that feeding the 8 AWG wire from the battery switch would be the simple solution with the one important fact. To always trailer with the battery switch on. This works for me but I am open for suggestions.

                    Jim
                    Last edited by Guest; 06-12-2020, 05:52 PM.

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                    • #11
                      Originally posted by MidwestCamper View Post

                      To always trailer with the battery switch on. This works for me but I am open for suggestions.

                      Jim
                      I have bumped that stupid battery switch off a couple of times while putting chairs up. So your solution would not work for me. But then I am not as smart as you are. You have obviously engineered a solution that works for you, that is really awesome. That is the wonderful thing about these forums, it gets us to thinking about things. I tend to not modify OEM systems too much. I burned up the engine on my motorcycle when I was 15 trying to get "peak performance".

                      After pulling my power cord in my SOB a couple of times I developed wiring issues, you gotta remember to disconnect those things before you pull the truck away, anyway; after my break away switch rusted out I had trouble getting the new breakaway switch to work properly, poor electrical connection. So ran wires direct. Switch to battery to brakes, totally unprotected, bad engineering, but it worked for me. I never burned anything up, nor shorted anything out. Each time I tested the new switch the EOH brakes hummed like a beaver stripping bark.

                      I haven't taken my Momentums wires apart yet, hopefully I will never have cause to.
                      2017 Momentum 376, 2019 Ford F450
                      2022 Triumph Scrambler Motorcycle
                      E-bikes, Hobi Pedal Kayaks
                      Kota the dog and KC the Kitty Cat

                      Comment


                      • #12
                        d2reid Dallas,

                        I think everyone has strengths in different area's so your opinion matters. The issue here is in moving the battery or batteries into the passthrough from the tongue on the travel trailers. The break away circuit cannot be unchanged in doing this. The original battery switch did not have a detent which would be unsatisfactory for sure. I've replaced my switch with a Sierra marine switch with a strong detent and that side of my rig is loaded where contact with the switch is not possible. My point in running the dedicated breakaway feed wire to the passthrough could work, but not protecting this circuit is poor engineering where protecting this circuit should be considered. Would you mind answering a couple questions in regard to fifth wheels?

                        Where does this unprotected wire run in your fifth wheel? Does your electric over hydraulic brake control have a protected feed circuit with a fuse or breaker?

                        I see four ways to do this where all methods result in a change to this circuit. I'm still however open to an alternate solution

                        1) Power the switch directly from the positive bus bar in the passthrough unprotected. Least desirable solution.
                        2) Power the switch directly from the positive bus bar in the passthrough but protect the circuit with a waterproof auto resettable breaker. Desirable solution.
                        3) Leave it alone where the break away switch is currently protected and fed from the passthrough through the main battery switch. Requirements?
                        4) Install a Curt stand alone break away system out on the tongue that could still have a dedicated unprotected feed circuit to the brake system. Another maintenance item.

                        https://www.amazon.com/CURT-52042-Pu...omotive&sr=1-2

                        I will also write GDRV to see what the language is in the NFPA 1192 code for RV's to gather some additional information on this topic.

                        Jim
                        Last edited by Guest; 06-18-2020, 06:40 AM.

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                        • #13
                          Looked into the government regulation on the break away switch and found the only requirement on braking is that the system must be capable of holding the brakes on for a minimum of 15 minutes. This is found at the following government site.

                          https://www.ecfr.gov/cgi-bin/retriev...se49.5.393_143

                          I wrote GDRV and after requesting specific rules or requirements on how this system should be wired, I got back a "Don't mess with the system" which was of no help, since anyone that has moved their batteries to the passthrough has changed the system or are routing unprotected circuits inside their rigs. That is unsatisfactory IMO.

                          To be sure I'm within the requirements, which are extremely loosely written, I've decided to install the Curt Break Away system out on the tongue of my rig. This way, the feed wire can be protected, and if the system is triggered, a dedicated battery will directly apply current to the brakes and will do so in a direct unprotected path. The small battery can be load tested on occasion and can be purchased for $37.00 every few years as part of general maintenance. In researching this, It was discovered, many have experienced melted wires from high capacity batteries and on a system that was inadvertently left on for a significant period of time. Also discovered on most all electric over hydraulic systems that the break away kit is part of their wiring schematic where there are plenty of warnings of having the brakes activated too long where the pump will burn up. Its also not good for a standard drum system as well with electromagnets. So why do we all not have these? IMO its cost.

                          In the case of the OP if a child or vandal pulled the pin on the break away, his brakes with the Curt system would have been applied for the required 15 minutes (min) and the system would have then applied minimal current from the trickle charger, while minimizing risk to the brake or electrical system. The Curt break away kit with charger and test panel will be part of my departure process such as ensuring the break away battery is charged, checking trailer hitch pin, lights, bars, lowering the antenna, and so on.

                          Some may not like this solution, and that's ok, but for me it solves the issue in changing the battery location and making changes to the break away system. Another solution to the vandal situation is to install an LED light or buzzer to the break away system that would alert the OP that someone has removed the pin.


                          Jim
                          Last edited by Guest; 06-16-2020, 12:57 PM.

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                          • #14
                            Originally posted by MidwestCamper View Post
                            Some may not like this solution, and that's ok...
                            I haven't looked at the specifics of the Curt system, but a separate battery sounds like a good solution. I am concerned about the large capacity (400aH) of my BB battery bank should my Hydrastar disc brake actuator's emergency circuit turn on inadvertently, or maliciously .

                            Thanks for all the "homework", Jim.

                            Forum moderators are not GD employees--we are volunteers and owners presumably just like yourself. Unless specifically mentioned otherwise, we have nothing to gain should you choose to purchase a product or engage a service we discuss on this forum.

                            2017 Ford F-350 DRW, '19 315RLTSPlus

                            Comment


                            • #15
                              Guest
                              Hi Jim,

                              If you dig back to my EoH disc brake installation, I challenged that brake system supplier on why there was no fuse or CB between the trailer battery and the EoH actuator. I proposed a 40A CB in this line and got a "that would work" response from the supplier. I can kind of understand the logic of "no fuses" in an emergency apply situation, but there are many inadvertent or malicious apply scenarios that could leave this circuit energized with no over-current protection for as long as the RV battery bank could last. Which could be a long time with the lithium banks and solar charge systems that some of you have !!

                              I measured the current draw of my Titan EoH actuator and it was 28 amps on startup and 22 amps while running. This is how I selected a 40A circuit breaker which is the same size as Titan recommends for the main power feed from the truck.

                              Having any electrical circuits without fuse or circuit breaker protection is just asking for trouble.

                              Rob

                              Cate & Rob
                              (with Border Collies Molly & Angel + Kitties Hazel & Elsie)
                              2015 Reflection 303RLS
                              2022 F350 Diesel CC SB SRW Lariat
                              Bayham, Ontario, Canada

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