I think I might think about disagreeing with most people’s take on greased brakes

[Jkwilson]

I worded the title in a bit of a confusing way so nobody thinks I’m claiming to be an authority or to have a final answer on the issue, but based on what I’ve observed I have some ideas.

I know it’s not the problem it was, but I think anything to improve our understanding of hubs, seals, and grease helps us out. IIRC, there are two thoughts on the leaking Lippert hubs: One is that they failed to grease the seal surface when installing it, and the other is that they overfilled the hub causing it to blow through the seal.

I’m of the opinion that the problem is poor quality grease which allows the oil to separate from the soap and then leak from around the joint between the outside of the seal and the hub.

So why have I come to this conclusion?

Right after I got my trailer, I tore into bearings and brakes so I knew where I stood. Where I stood was that everything was crap. All 4 wheels had grease on the brake shoes. I ordered new brake assemblies, cleaned everything up and made everything right. I know it was right, because it was 4 years ago, and when I opened everything up last week, everything was in great shape with the exception of a non-functioning brake on one wheel.

What I saw on the original tear down was lots of oil dripped onto the magnets, on the backing plate directly below the axle, on the shoes and concentrated in a small area of each wheel and tire. What I didn’t see was any sign of oil anywhere else on the backing plate or the brake parts or any of the soap base from the grease outside the seal. There was more grease than was needed in the hubs, but I don’t believe it was enough to have caused an issue. My take on that is that it means the leaking occurred while the trailer was parked on a seasonal site for its first three years. Living in Indiana, the trailer had approximately 300 miles on it at the time with no signs of leaking occurring while the trailer was moving.

The TLDR version of the above is that my trailer leaked oil from the hubs on all 4 wheels while it was parked and apparently didn’t leak while moving.

The current tear down showed no signs whatsoever of leaking of any kind.

So in my mind, it comes down to what I did differently than what Lippert did on original assembly:

1. I greased the seals before installing the hubs.
2. I applied silicon gasket maker on the outer surface of the seals before seating them in the hub.
3. I used Mobil 1 wheel bearing grease in a reasonable amount.

Greasing the seals certainly is a good thing, but I genuinely think the leakage occurred around the outside surface of the seals. I used the sealant there because that’s the way I’ve always been instructed to do it on farm equipment gearboxes filled with gear oil. I have seen gear boxes leak oil from the joint between the seal and the box and fixed it with a new seal with sealant applied.

Again, not claiming expertise, but I think it all comes down to the quality of the grease they used. It clearly separated at very low temperature with no pressure. Whether I’m right about it leaking around the seal rather than through it is certainly debatable, but the trivial effort required to apply sealant is IMO a no-brainer.

Feel free to show me I’m thinking wrong or to tell me my genius has saved the entire RV industry :-)

[Country Campers]

John,

That is a great understanding of what may have went wrong, and may still be going wrong, with greasy brakes. I have noticed the oil separation in one of my grease guns that I use for my tractor, greased every time it is used, I have used "cheaper" grease because I grease it a lot. Anyhow I noticed that the grease gun hanging on the wall would drip a puddle of oil when left for a while. Using a better quality of grease and this does not happen so I agree that this may be the issue that you have described. I have used both the Mobile 1 and Lucas Red & Tacky and they do not leak oil.

Brian

[familytruckster4]

The evidence on all mine show it was an overzealous greasing rather than a grease breakdown. The grease heres shows no sign of seperation. If you look at the area just outside of the seal at about the 5 O clock position you can see the waves of grease that were pumped past the seals. All 3 of my trailers were similar although this one is the worst

[familytruckster4]

Another view of the problem. Note in both pics that the bearing area in the hub is completely full of grease, likely creating a hot running bearing, even then the grease never seperated.

[Jkwilson]

The evidence on all mine show it was an overzealous greasing rather than a grease breakdown. The grease heres shows no sign of seperation. If you look at the area just outside of the seal at about the 5 O clock position you can see the waves of grease that were pumped past the seals. All 3 of my trailers were similar although this one is the worst

Yep. Yours is a different issue than mine and no doubt a common problem.

[Jkwilson]

John,

That is a great understanding of what may have went wrong, and may still be going wrong, with greasy brakes. I have noticed the oil separation in one of my grease guns that I use for my tractor, greased every time it is used, I have used "cheaper" grease because I grease it a lot. Anyhow I noticed that the grease gun hanging on the wall would drip a puddle of oil when left for a while. Using a better quality of grease and this does not happen so I agree that this may be the issue that you have described. I have used both the Mobile 1 and Lucas Red & Tacky and they do not leak oil.

Brian

I have heard anecdotally that pulling the plunger back to depressurize the gun will reduce the separation in the gun.

[familytruckster4]

I have seen the separation issue before. I have never heard a real consensus on the cause.
I would throw this into the separation theory, many large trucks and trailers use "wet hubs" rather than greased bearings. The seals on those units are very similar and are able to withstand the flow of a gear oil that is likely similar to the fluid that separates from a grease.
I like where youre going with the original theory, I've just never experienced it. We bought our chassis/bearing grease by the keg at work, other than a little bit of liquid in the bottom of the empty keg thats all I ever saw.

[Cate&Rob]

When I went through the over-greased LCI brakes fiasco several years ago, they tried to "infer" that this was over greasing using the zerk. I pulled the zerk fittings and took pictures of the empty passage behind the zerk with the grese covered brake shoes in the background. That ended that discussion path.

Rob

[Jkwilson]

I have seen the separation issue before. I have never heard a real consensus on the cause.
I would throw this into the separation theory, many large trucks and trailers use "wet hubs" rather than greased bearings. The seals on those units are very similar and are able to withstand the flow of a gear oil that is likely similar to the fluid that separates from a grease.
I like where youre going with the original theory, I've just never experienced it. We bought our chassis/bearing grease by the keg at work, other than a little bit of liquid in the bottom of the empty keg thats all I ever saw.

If you want to go down a rabbit hole, there is a very good analysis on another forum about the poor quality of light (all RV trailer axles are relatively light) trailer drums. Out of round, off center and run out issues. I went down that because one of my drums is out of round. If the QC is poor there, it stands that it might be for the seal mating surface as well. My take is it’s worth adding the sealant At little cost and much potential benefit.

[familytruckster4]

If you want to go down a rabbit hole, there is a very good analysis on another forum about the poor quality of light (all RV trailer axles are relatively light) trailer drums. Out of round, off center and run out issues. I went down that because one of my drums is out of round. If the QC is poor there, it stands that it might be for the seal mating surface as well. My take is it’s worth adding the sealant At little cost and much potential benefit.

I agree with the sealant for sure. Thats just a good practice.
I have been retired for a few years now but one of the issues we were running into was cheap parts that werent cheap. The quality of many things has gone down and it is plaguing the service and repair industry. This started years before the current supply chain problems. I feel bad for some of the techs since they dont get paid for a comeback on a bad part, thats time and money out of their pockets.


Seems as though theres plenty of rabbit holes to look down these days

[TucsonJim]

John - In reference to your grease theory. When I picked up my 2017 297RSTS, all four brakes were contaminated with LCI grease. I placed an aftermarket grease and LCI grease side by side on a paper plate and put it in an oven at 180°F. The LCI grease became a runny mess, and the MAG1 grease held together much better.

Jim

[Lonestar]

Like Jim, I too received a new Reflection with grease contaminated brakes. The dealer replaced all 4 brake assemblies, and I assume used a locally acquired grease, not Lippert, Dexter or whatever OEM. About a year later when I changed out bearings to Timken, I noticed no sealant on the outside of the seals when I pulled them. Also, no grease contamination.

Personally, I've never used a sealant on the OD of the seals when installing, and never had an issue. (I think I will start this practice the next time I service the bearings). But, would the sealant only prevent leaks if a quality grease is NOT used?

[Jkwilson]

But, would the sealant only prevent leaks if a quality grease is NOT used?

It MIGHT help in any situation where there was a grease problem. Raincoat and umbrella.

[Guest]

I agree with all cases. Over greasing with a pneumatic grease gun, installing with dry seals and the watery thin black grease that Lippert was originally using can all cause the greased brake issue.

One change that Lippert did was to move to a much thicker red grease. Not sure of the brand where many are red such as the Mobile 1 grease in my hubs.

Jim

[skrantzman]

I ordered new brake assemblies, cleaned everything up and made everything right.

Since we purchased our slightly used trailer (less than a year old), I can not get the breaks to lock up when manually applying the F150's factory break controller with the gain set at the maximum of 10. I thought it was likely due to the trailer still being somewhat new, and that the breaks most likely were not adjusted after the shoes were seated within the first 500 miles. I got a chance to jack up the trailer so that I could adjust the breaks. Once jacked up, I could hear break shoe contact with the drums when rotating all tires, so the breaks appear to be adjusted correctly. Now after reading this and other posts, it sounds like I just might have grease on the pads. I will have to pull the drums and check it out. My questions is, if there is grease/oil on the shoes, do you have to purchase the whole break assembly, or can you just purchase replacement shoes. Sorry for my ignorance in this area, but I have only done break jobs on cars/trucks, never trailers, and its been a long, long time since I even had to do drum breaks.