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  • Reflection 220RK Frame Cracks

    Well I am not a happy camper. I first ran across this issue on the Grand Design 220RK face book page https://www.facebook.com/groups/316794188993517 Daniel Hamala posted information where the cracks were on her unit. I found mine in similar locations.

    I contacted Lippert and they set up a case file, and asked me to send a lot of photos which I did. I appreciate the customer service I received from the Lippert staff. Eve the operator was concerned and made sure the department picked up before passing me on. I talked to a Brent S. He was very good at explaining what they needed They are now asking for repair estimates. That request makes me a bit hopeful. I have an appointment next Thursday to have the frame inspected by the same shop I will be using for the axle swap, so hopefully I can get everything done at the same time.

    Question - should I undo sections near the cracks I found, or drop the chloroplast completely so they can fully see the inside of the frame.
    Second - should I try and find some crack dye before hand and treat what I can. It been a long time since I check welds on bridges but we used a cleaner Wiped it down), the dye (wiped down with cleaner on a rag) and then a developer - all sprays. I also watched the old timer used a magnet and iron graphite in some cases - he hated the spry smell. If that is a good idea what is out there that I might find locally.

    Now for a few photos of what I found

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    Passenger side in front of axle, Cross member that holds black and gray tank mounted behind Second picture passenger side just rear or rear hanger. This crack extends behind the gusset.

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    Passenger side above center hanger above gusset. I am pretty sure the top weld is cracked. Second photo is drivers side froward of front axle where cross member is attached that hold the black and gray tanks.

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ID:	96382 Drivers side over rear axle I believe I can see the cross beam mounting impression behind the helps support the water tank.

    To be continued




    2018 Reflection 150 Series 220RK 5th whee, Star White 2022 F350 King Ranch CC Long bed (HAL) (CCC 4062lbs), B&W 25K OEM Companion,. SteadyFast system, Trailer reverse lights, rear receiver spare tire holder, storage tube, sumo springs, Victron MultiPlus 12/120/3000, Solar, Custom 6K axles upgrade, and other modifications.

  • #2
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ID:	96384 Street side above rear hanger
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ID:	96385 I think this is street side above front hanger

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ID:	96386 Pit in frame above street side rear axle. You can see crack above shown in first post.

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    This is a long view of the photo above. I am puzzled by the small holes/pits the the frame web, Again this is over the rear axle street side.

    I was thinking of getting out my pressure washer - it is still runs and doing a fill frame cleaning, then go back over it again.

    Thoughts on what I am seeing and how should this be repaired correctly. I was always told at lease on bridge girders to drill out the crack ends, grind the cracks both sides and do deep penetration fillet welds, but that was on thick bridge girders. What kind of process should I expect here.

    Also is there a preferred welding method like Tig, Mig, or stick?

    Thanks for any advice

    Keith


    2018 Reflection 150 Series 220RK 5th whee, Star White 2022 F350 King Ranch CC Long bed (HAL) (CCC 4062lbs), B&W 25K OEM Companion,. SteadyFast system, Trailer reverse lights, rear receiver spare tire holder, storage tube, sumo springs, Victron MultiPlus 12/120/3000, Solar, Custom 6K axles upgrade, and other modifications.

    Comment


    • #3
      I am surely not liking what I see in these pictures. Cracks in the web of the I-beam main frame are not a good sign of the strength and quality of the material. In my opinion, and only an opinion, I would not be happy unless the whole frame was replaced. That may sound like a big order but cracks in the middle of the I-beam are not good.

      I will be checking my frame this weekend in hopes of not finding anything similar to this.

      Welding these cracks would be a little tricky. I would think they would want to grind them out a little bit, drill holes at each end and then weld, preheating would be key here to not allow a heat affected zone to be created beside the weld which would possibly induce more cracking. It will be interesting in hearing what Lippert says about this and if there are more owners out there with the same issues would there be a recall in the future.

      Brian
      Brian & Michelle
      2018 Reflection 29RS
      2022 Chevy 3500HD

      Comment


      • #4
        Originally posted by Country Campers View Post
        I am surely not liking what I see in these pictures. Cracks in the web of the I-beam main frame are not a good sign of the strength and quality of the material. In my opinion, and only an opinion, I would not be happy unless the whole frame was replaced. That may sound like a big order but cracks in the middle of the I-beam are not good.

        I will be checking my frame this weekend in hopes of not finding anything similar to this.

        Welding these cracks would be a little tricky. I would think they would want to grind them out a little bit, drill holes at each end and then weld, preheating would be key here to not allow a heat affected zone to be created beside the weld which would possibly induce more cracking. It will be interesting in hearing what Lippert says about this and if there are more owners out there with the same issues would there be a recall in the future.

        Brian
        .Thanks Brian
        Would it be worthwhile to contact GD I am well out of warranty. I don't know who is our Reflection contact is either. Would be helpful for GD to chime in on the proper repair. I plan to get the pressure washer out tomorrow.

        Thanks for the preheat tip, but that could be problematic with all the wiring and stuff behind the frame and keeping it out of the way What about stitch welding in a secondary web (boxing the frame)?

        Thanks
        Keith
        2018 Reflection 150 Series 220RK 5th whee, Star White 2022 F350 King Ranch CC Long bed (HAL) (CCC 4062lbs), B&W 25K OEM Companion,. SteadyFast system, Trailer reverse lights, rear receiver spare tire holder, storage tube, sumo springs, Victron MultiPlus 12/120/3000, Solar, Custom 6K axles upgrade, and other modifications.

        Comment


        • #5
          Drill ends and mig weld...imo. I did that on a previous 5'er and they held up.

          I'll be under my trailer tomorrow........

          In one of your pics I'm not sure it's a crack or just the edge of scale in the web of the I beam?
          2018 Dodge 3500 6.7 Cummins w Aisin and 9 cup holders
          Not to brag or anything about my finances, but my bank calls me about every day to tell me my balance is OUTSTANDING!

          Comment


          • #6
            Dang it. I'm so sorry you're having to deal with that Keith. I'm also going to do an inspection tomorrow on my 2017. It's six years old this month...

            Jim
            Jim and Ginnie
            2024 Solitude 310GK
            GDRV Technical Forum Moderator
            GDRV Rally Support Coordinator

            Comment


            • #7
              Yoga, looks like a fall winter project should you have the facility. Good catch, all of us that own an RV should spend some time on a creeper inspecting the undercarriage.
              I would drop the chloroplast given what you have shared. Trust me you will see all kind of things you’ll want to improve. Personally, I would drill the ends of the cracks and grind them out lightly, then stick weld because that’s what I have. The Mig will do a nicer job and the gas used in a Tig weld helps to displace some of the moisture that may become trapped during the welding process. Not a welding expert here but I can make metal stay together with a stick welder.
              Retired Tanker Yanker
              2017 F-250 6.7 2019 273 MK - Carlisle CSL 16 225/75 15, MORryde CRE 3000 & center X cross brace, Sumo springs, Andersen Ultimate Hitch 6-Leaf Double-Eye Spring for 4,500-lb Axles
              My your pleasures be many and your troubles be few!

              Comment


              • #8
                Lippert would be the ones with the best knowledge of the repair procedure. I would only contact GD if your response from Lippert is unsatisfactory.
                I had some similar issues on a heavy travel trailer around 7 yrs ago, not a GD but still had a Lippert frame. I had it repaired AND reinforced by folks I know that run a shop that handles heavy trucks all the way to trailers and classic cars. They have been in the business since the 30's.
                The repairs lasted for the next few years and then I sold the unit. Lippert paid for all of it.
                2021 Reflection 337RLS, 2021 Silverado 3500HD 6.6 gas. Nellie the wonder boxer

                Comment


                • #9
                  Yoda Keith, Mag particle will find subsurface cracks down to about 1/8" internal to surface, but it only works on Ferrous materials. Dye Penetrant works on surface cracks only and just about any material out there. I suggest you find a way to remove the paint from the questionable areas, then use either method for detecting cracks. Dye pen testing is probably much easier to get. Mag testing takes special equipment that is probably best left to someone who does it more frequently. You may find a local NDT testing company (since it's a mobile trailer and NDT guys are mobile) you may find they charge a nominal fee for 1/2 day of work with or without consumables. I think NDT for mag is somewhere in the range of $1500 per 1/2 day (this includes travel time for where I work). By taking the trailer to them, you save the travel time and they get to work immediately. Ask about paint on the surface as some people use a "wet" process with a black light that may work through the paint.
                  Joseph
                  Tow
                  Vehicle: 2024 GMC K3500 Denali Ultimate Diesel
                  Coach: 303RLS Delivered March 5, 2021
                  South of Houston Texas

                  Comment


                  • #10
                    Hi Keith,

                    Some of these apparent "cracks" follow the edges of welds and may be the heat affected zone as we have seen on hangers. Cracks are usually created by repeated flexing loads. The cracks that follow random paths though the web of the I beam are really curious. It is difficult to imagine a load cycling condition that would create these. Maybe flaws in the original manufacturing of the I beam?

                    Figuring out what is causing the cracks should be a first step in coming up with a plan for repair/reinforcement. Before hiring someone to come up with a reinforcing plan, I would suggest dropping the coroplast to see if these cracks actually penetrate through the steel. Polishing away the paint over the cracks with a very fine grit abrasive would give you a chance to look at the steel more closely.

                    There are any number of tubes and wires inside the frame rails that could be melted by welding. These need to be out of the way before reinforcing is done. Another reason to drop the coroplast.

                    It will be interesting to learn whether LCI offers an opinion and a repair plan.

                    Rob
                    Cate & Rob
                    (with Border Collies Molly & Angel + Kitties Hazel & Elsie)
                    2015 Reflection 303RLS
                    2022 F350 Diesel CC SB SRW Lariat
                    Bayham, Ontario, Canada

                    Comment


                    • #11
                      Originally posted by Cate&Rob View Post
                      Hi Keith,

                      Some of these apparent "cracks" follow the edges of welds and may be the heat affected zone as we have seen on hangers. Cracks are usually created by repeated flexing loads. The cracks that follow random paths though the web of the I beam are really curious. It is difficult to imagine a load cycling condition that would create these. Maybe flaws in the original manufacturing of the I beam?

                      Figuring out what is causing the cracks should be a first step in coming up with a plan for repair/reinforcement. Before hiring someone to come up with a reinforcing plan, I would suggest dropping the coroplast to see if these cracks actually penetrate through the steel. Polishing away the paint over the cracks with a very fine grit abrasive would give you a chance to look at the steel more closely.

                      There are any number of tubes and wires inside the frame rails that could be melted by welding. These need to be out of the way before reinforcing is done. Another reason to drop the coroplast.

                      It will be interesting to learn whether LCI offers an opinion and a repair plan.

                      Rob
                      Thanks Rob
                      I had asked Lippet for specific information on the repairs they might suggest (along with proper methods) . I also sent them information on the repair facility I have picked to do the work. I got the following back;
                      This facility will work just fine. Once we have a estimate listing labor p/hr, parts, quantities and totals we will proceed as needed with the case file.
                      So after the inspection Thursday I will sit down with the owner and brainstorm. On several other forms folks have said LCI picked up the bill, including the reinforcing. So I guess I have some hope. Now if I can only get my pressure washer running - Just wont start (old Troy built gas model). I may bite the bullet and just get a new electric one.

                      As for the quality of the frame steel itself the last picture in post Forums shows surface defects on possible more. There are other random rough areas too. I'll post better pictures when I get things cleaned and belly opened.

                      I have had the coroplast down before - just not looking forward to that job, but I guess it needs to be done - probably before Thursdays inspection.

                      BTW - Lippert has been very responsive to emails and my initial call. That makes me hopeful.

                      Keith

                      2018 Reflection 150 Series 220RK 5th whee, Star White 2022 F350 King Ranch CC Long bed (HAL) (CCC 4062lbs), B&W 25K OEM Companion,. SteadyFast system, Trailer reverse lights, rear receiver spare tire holder, storage tube, sumo springs, Victron MultiPlus 12/120/3000, Solar, Custom 6K axles upgrade, and other modifications.

                      Comment


                      • #12
                        Originally posted by Cate&Rob View Post
                        Hi Keith,

                        Some of these apparent "cracks" follow the edges of welds and may be the heat affected zone as we have seen on hangers. Cracks are usually created by repeated flexing loads. The cracks that follow random paths though the web of the I beam are really curious. It is difficult to imagine a load cycling condition that would create these. Maybe flaws in the original manufacturing of the I beam?

                        Figuring out what is causing the cracks should be a first step in coming up with a plan for repair/reinforcement. Before hiring someone to come up with a reinforcing plan, I would suggest dropping the coroplast to see if these cracks actually penetrate through the steel. Polishing away the paint over the cracks with a very fine grit abrasive would give you a chance to look at the steel more closely.

                        There are any number of tubes and wires inside the frame rails that could be melted by welding. These need to be out of the way before reinforcing is done. Another reason to drop the coroplast.

                        It will be interesting to learn whether LCI offers an opinion and a repair plan.

                        Rob
                        Rob just thought of something - to help in the final solution would installing the Morryde X factor cross braces at the hangers help in this situation? The engineer in me thinks the flexing of the 2x2 box below the frame from the long hangers is actually flexing the lower flange and the braces inducing that to the web at the top of the braces Am I thinking correctly? With everything apart the installation should be straight forward.

                        Also do you or others have any suggestion for extra bracing or boxing of the frame that my welder might not think about? I have a concern Lippert stoped the 2x2 lower tube too short which might have caused the flange / web crack at the one end that is under the gusset.

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                        The rear passenger side hanger is just below and right of this crack. You can see the rear end of the 2x2 reinforcing tube.

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ID:	96623 Here is a better picture of the hanger/tube location below the crack. When I have the inspection done I will have then check for a bow at this location towards the back. Do I see a vertical crack running up to the bottom of the floor support flange?. I haft to get the pressure washer working tomorrow and clean things up and retake the pictures

                        Just brainstorming

                        Thanks
                        Keith
                        2018 Reflection 150 Series 220RK 5th whee, Star White 2022 F350 King Ranch CC Long bed (HAL) (CCC 4062lbs), B&W 25K OEM Companion,. SteadyFast system, Trailer reverse lights, rear receiver spare tire holder, storage tube, sumo springs, Victron MultiPlus 12/120/3000, Solar, Custom 6K axles upgrade, and other modifications.

                        Comment


                        • #13
                          Originally posted by Yoda View Post

                          I have a concern Lippert stoped the 2x2 lower tube too short which might have caused the flange / web crack at the one end that is under the gusset.
                          Keith
                          Hi Keith,

                          Extending the 2x2 square tube along the bottom of the I beam might be a good reinforcing strategy. I had the 2x2s added to my earlier Reflection after it was built and the LCI tech who did this used longer sections of 2x2 than the production version that ends at the hangers as shown in your pictures.

                          It is difficult to imagine the side-to-side flexing action from the suspension that would cause that crack without also causing damage to the flange reinforcing gusset above the hanger. Unless . . . the entire 2x2 is flexing the frame rail flange and gussets. Is there a similar crack at the other end of the 2x2 ?

                          Cross bracing the hangers to prevent frame twist makes sense . . . but, if you have the trailer at a repair/fabrication facility, they can probably do a better job of this than the bolt together MORryde version. Just remember that whatever you install has to be removable or otherwise out of the way for potential tank R&R. I would be inclined to weld stubs to the inner hanger legs and bolt solid bars across the trailer, between these stubs.

                          Rob

                          Cate & Rob
                          (with Border Collies Molly & Angel + Kitties Hazel & Elsie)
                          2015 Reflection 303RLS
                          2022 F350 Diesel CC SB SRW Lariat
                          Bayham, Ontario, Canada

                          Comment


                          • #14
                            Well I gave up on my old troy built gas pressure washer and got this https://www.homedepot.com/p/RYOBI-27...1VNM/317623236. I used Zep de-greaser first, let it sit 1/2 hour while I assembled the washer. I think it did a good job. I need to let the area dry before I can crawl back under.

                            I have decided to pull the chloroplast as the front of the frame cannot be inspected from the outside as the saddle boxes are in the way. There is at least one major cross member that holds the black and gray tank in that area. The existing crack is where the rear cross member holding the black and gray t ans sit too.

                            I have done this before. However looking at the rear it appears to be stapled in place and not bolted, unless they are hidden. Has anyone else seen this and how did you get it removed. Any thought on how to hold the wiring in place once everything is open? A lot of it just rested on the bottom. I only need to go about 20 miles. I was thinking duct tape on the tanks and maybe zip ties using the propane lines as support too. I plan to bolt the propane lines back up once the fabric is out of the way.

                            One last question - is there something better than the coroplast I have and a source for it? Would be nice to have a clean install once the repairs are made - I was thinking about a bit of hard foam insulation too if it will fit. I'm thinking 1/2" or possible 3/4" might fit - closed cell to be sure it does not hold water.

                            Thanks
                            Keith
                            2018 Reflection 150 Series 220RK 5th whee, Star White 2022 F350 King Ranch CC Long bed (HAL) (CCC 4062lbs), B&W 25K OEM Companion,. SteadyFast system, Trailer reverse lights, rear receiver spare tire holder, storage tube, sumo springs, Victron MultiPlus 12/120/3000, Solar, Custom 6K axles upgrade, and other modifications.

                            Comment


                            • #15
                              The rear most part of the coroplast is stapled to the bottom of the rear wall. My staples were rusted. I pulled them all out and used some stainless screws to reattach. I would wire tie everything up very securely, 20 miles does not sound like a lot but there are plenty of bad things that can happen under the rig in that short distance.

                              Brian
                              Brian & Michelle
                              2018 Reflection 29RS
                              2022 Chevy 3500HD

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