Go Power 190 W expansion kit - good deal or not?

[Yoda]

https://gpelectric.com/products/over...expansion-kit/

I just stumbled on what I think is a deal for this 190W expansion kit $352 verses $450 - $480 I am seeing elsewhere. I already have a GO Power 160W system and this panel would be a plug and play install Any thoughts on this. If I get 2 to add to my 160W I would be at 540 watts which should be enough for a 300ah lithium set up. Charge amps will be close to 28amp (9.3 amp each plus roughly 9 amp on the 160W panel)- just below controller rating. Go Power support said it would work The existing cabling is #4awg. total run length is about 6' to controller after panels combine (parallel) and 6' to back of distribution panel where the dealer tied in. I don't know the gauge run to the battery's from there (GD wiring)

TucsonJim I searched for the wiring load/wire size chart you have posted, and finally found it in an older post. Any chance it could be posted stand alone somewhere - maybe reference section?

Thanks for any help folks.
Keith

[howson]

I already have a GO Power 160W system and this panel would be a plug and play install Any thoughts on this. If I get 2 to add to my 160W I would be at 540 watts...

Not quite, Keith. When panels are mixed in parallel the lower value becomes the maximum for all of the panels. Effectively that means they will all function as 160W panels. Watch Will's video:

Charge amps will be close to 28amp (9.3 amp each plus roughly 9 amp on the 160W panel)- just below controller rating.

What controller do you have?

[Yoda]

Not quite, Keith. When panels are mixed in parallel the lower value becomes the maximum for all of the panels. Effectively that means they will all function as 160W panels. Watch Will's video:

What controller do you have?

The controller will be GP-PWM-30-UL

https://gpelectric.com/products/30-a...ler-bluetooth/

I currently have the GP-PWM-30 which is non Lithium rated - same specifications

They dont have the 160 in their inventory (discontinued), The 190's are the same size - they said they were able too get more power out of them with better electronics etc.

[howson]

Yoda

Usual caveats...I'm not an expert but I know enough to be dangerous.

Bottom line up front: I think you'll be disappointed with the system's performance when used with a LifePO4 battery bank. I'll try to briefly explain my rationale.

1) The GoPower Controller is PWM, not MPPT. There are plenty of YouTube videos that document the technical differences so I won't go into that here, but as shown in an AltE Store demo the exact same panels through an MPPT vs PWM results in a much different output. Demo is here: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=V2b7z2eTb5o Picture below is a snapshot from that demo.

Note that the panels in the test are identical, one is connected to a PWM controller and one to an MPPT controller. In watts (volts X amps), the PMW controller is generating 37.356W (to the battery) and the MPPT 66.975W.


2) The GoPower controller's maximum voltage input is 28V per https://gpelectric.com/products/30-a...ler-bluetooth/. That means the panels you're considering must be in parallel to each other and your existing 160W panel. The 190W panels operate at maximum efficiency at 19.1V (per https://gpelectric.com/products/high...-solar-module/). Remembering that LifePO4 batteries have a slightly higher voltage than wet cells (my Battle Born's charge at 14.4) that's a narrow window of usable voltage. In the real world that means the sunshine will have to be abundant and overhead to get a good output (if any). If you could wire the panels in series there's a much larger "window" created because now the voltage output doubles--but your controller can't handle it.

Here's my .02: If the budget will allow, sell the GoPower 160W panel and charge controller. Buy four identical 190W (or whatever panels you really like) setup in a pairs, i.e. in a series-parallel configuration, like what Jim and I both did. Connect the two series-parallel pairs to a junction box and then wire the output to a Victron SmartSolar MPPT controller. At the end of the day I'm convinced you'll be pleased with the results. "Pay once, cry once."

There are so many limitations with solar, though, there has to be reasonable expectations. For example, at 9:38AM in late December my 1200W system is generating a mere 146W (I'm watching the output live on my computer). This is due to the sun's angle and shade from trees (also due to the sun's angle).

Probably too much info...good luck. I know you'll chew on this for quite awhile.

Howard

TucsonJim -- would appreciate your review/critique of my input above. If I messed something up please correct it.

[ncitro]

I'd agree 100% with Howard. I've got 1200 watts as well, split into three series-parallel pairs and feeding a Victron controller. Granted I don't frequent the Southwest, but I'd say I average 6-800 watts since my panels don't tilt. We are heavy power users, but I can say for us, with the four Lion energy batteries I have, 1,200 watts is definitely not too much.

[Yoda]

ncitro howson "Probably too much info...good luck. I know you'll chew on this for quite awhile." You know me too well my friends I too am not an electrification, but I remembered some of the stuff I learned in electronic and somehow get things to work - might take getting bit, a few blown fuses and 3 or 4 redos, but I get there. As for Solar I appreciate all the learning as I basically am starting from scratch. I have learned my dealer wiring the solar controller to the back of the distribution panel and not to the battery's might have been a mistake.

Been doing some reading this morning and called Go Power. I got the numbers on my 160W panel 8.79A 22.78 volts. The 190's are 9.3A 23.4V - very close. He said it will work find with a slight loss with the voltages so close. He could not say how much

Per this site and calculations I loose about 8%Mixing solar panels – Dos and Don’ts • SOLAR PANEL SECRETS EXPOSED (solarpanelsvenue.com)
Other places say OK but agree on less performance. One puzzle is if I use the above numbers my 160W comes out at 8.79A x 22.78V = 200.24W the 190 W panels calculate at 9.3A x 23.4V = 217.62W. So there must be a de-rating going on somewhere

Now the difference between the PWM and MPPT solar controllers has me worried, so need to look into that. Go Power has MPPT controllers, but none of the remote face plates match
up. So I need to consider a face plate to cover and maybe mount a different battery monitor or switches there.


You can see my existing solar controller on the wall by the stairs below the T-stat and above the light switch.

The LifePO4 batteries are a few years out. Trying to build a small system as I go. One issue is my current controller is wall mounted as shown above and not using it for something seems a shame. I wounder if I leave it connected to the battery's if it would act as a battery monitor? The back plate size is 4.25"H by 7.48"W

However you are both correct on doing this right the first time

Well off to chew some more on this. You might have saved me money for once

Any more thoughts?

Thanks
Keith

[ncitro]

I did mine in phases, First upgraded to golf cart batteries, then inverter, then solar and Lithium batteries, and lastly I upgraded my inverter to a Victron. This was all over three years, and I do not think I wasted much. I bought the Magnum inverter used and sold it pretty for mostly what I bought it for.

If you move to Victron you would do well to also get a CCGX display like howson has or do the Victron software on top of Raspberry Pi I did. Its a great display for management, and has the advantage in your case of being fairly large so might cover your existing hole.

This is the case I got for my 7" Pi display, Amazon says it is 8x4.8.

https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B0...?ie=UTF8&psc=1

Here is my thread on the Venus OS project, I am a techie but not super great with Linux and I was still able to manage it.

https://gdrvowners.com/forum/solar/2...ctron-venus-os

Lastly you could always stain a nice piece of wood, remove your old controller and thermostat and mount it to the wall. Cut new holes for the new devices and you will be all set. When I did my upgrade at the end of my project I replaced the whole wall of the cabinet everything was mounted to so I could start fresh.

[howson]

Yoda -- ncitro's post has a golden nugget buried in it. What is it? Having an end goal in mind to build to. This will allow you to incrementally get to the goal. Definitely what I did with my projects--look again at my inverter PDF. It starts with "this is where I want to get to". What I have today is very close (I learned a TON along the way).

Only other thought I have is a GX Touch 50 may be a great option to install where the current GoPower controller is mounted. (FYI, I didn't compare sizes.) The GX is the "brains" to monitoring a Victron setup. Very similar to my CCGX but a different implementation. Worth considering? https://www.victronenergy.com/panel-...ng/gx-touch-50

Good luck--and don't let SWMBO see how much you're contemplating spending on solar gadgets.

Howard

[ncitro]

Yoda -- ncitro's post has a golden nugget buried in it. What is it? Having an end goal in mind to build to. This will allow you to incrementally get to the goal. Definitely what I did with my projects--look again at my inverter PDF. It starts with "this is where I want to get to". What I have today is very close (I learned a TON along the way).

Only other thought I have is a GX Touch 50 may be a great option to install where the current GoPower controller is mounted. (FYI, I didn't compare sizes.) The GX is the "brains" to monitoring a Victron setup. Very similar to my CCGX but a different implementation. Worth considering? https://www.victronenergy.com/panel-...ng/gx-touch-50

Good luck--and don't let SWMBO see how much you're contemplating spending on solar gadgets.

Howard

A valid point. I will say that I thought when I started I might do solar some day but did not think I'd ever do lithium. That technology has come a long way in the three years I've been watching. I partly got lucky but also did plan the system to be upgradable to whatever I added. Even the solar controller I bought was overkill, but gives me the option of adding more panels to the roof or a couple portable panels. Same with the #2 wire I ran down from the roof junction box to the controller.

[Yoda]

Yoda -- ncitro's post has a golden nugget buried in it. What is it? Having an end goal in mind to build to. This will allow you to incrementally get to the goal. Definitely what I did with my projects--look again at my inverter PDF. It starts with "this is where I want to get to". What I have today is very close (I learned a TON along the way).

Only other thought I have is a GX Touch 50 may be a great option to install where the current GoPower controller is mounted. (FYI, I didn't compare sizes.) The GX is the "brains" to monitoring a Victron setup. Very similar to my CCGX but a different implementation. Worth considering? https://www.victronenergy.com/panel-...ng/gx-touch-50

Good luck--and don't let SWMBO see how much you're contemplating spending on solar gadgets.

Howard

Thanks Howard
The touch screen is slightly smaller https://www.victronenergy.com/upload...X-Touch-50.pdf at roughly 3.4 by 5 wide. However I could get a black piece of plexiglass and make a back mounting frame. I am assuming this would attach to the Victron 2000 or 3000 inverter.charger? I am a bit confused as the Victron MultiPlus says I need a Cerbbo GX box between?
Also would I still not need a converter when attached to shore power or is that what the charger side of the Victron would do?

Thanks again
Keith

[ncitro]

Thanks Howard
The touch screen is slightly smaller https://www.victronenergy.com/upload...X-Touch-50.pdf at roughly 3.4 by 5 wide. However I could get a black piece of plexiglass and make a back mounting frame. I am assuming this would attach to the Victron 2000 or 3000 inverter.charger? I am a bit confused as the Victron MultiPlus says I need a Cerbbo GX box between?
Also would I still not need a converter when attached to shore power or is that what the charger side of the Victron would do?

Thanks again
Keith

The charger of the Multiplus can replace your converter. And will do a much better job.

[howson]

Yoda

Any of the Victron "GX" devices connect to the Multiplus and are the "brains" in the system. Each GX-enabled device has different capabilities. My CCGX is the Touch 50 in one package. For your needs the Touch 50 looks like a better option (screen geographically separated by a significant distance from the actual inverter/charger). A BMV-712 battery monitor and a Solar Controller can be connected to a GX device, too. If only someone would post a diagram showing it all connected!

One very cool feature of the GX devices is (with an internet connection) being able to remotely monitor the system. This is what's going on with mine right this instant...

[ncitro]

Yoda

Any of the Victron "GX" devices connect to the Multiplus and are the "brains" in the system. Each GX-enabled device has different capabilities. My CCGX is the Touch 50 in one package. For your needs the Touch 50 looks like a better option (screen geographically separated by a significant distance from the actual inverter/charger). A BMV-712 battery monitor and a Solar Controller can be connected to a GX device, too. If only someone would post a diagram showing it all connected!

One very cool feature of the GX devices is (with an internet connection) being able to remotely monitor the system. This is what's going on with mine right this instant...

Good description. I know the GX offerings can be a bit confusing. Just for clarity the venus os running on a Raspberry Pi duplicates this functionality. I love the remote monitoring.

[Yoda]

Update
Well for now I have just ordered the 190W extension panels only. My existing controller will work with them. I sat down and re-ran the numbers and I need to put this project together as I can afford (or as SWMBO will allow or I can get away with). The panel price was too good to pass up (extensive searching (even with sales) did not come close) and I know the brand is good and works. The voltage and amp ratings are close enough.

Thanks to everyone I learned a lot. I looked into the other panel brands (Renogy, etc 160w to190w) and compared the voltages and amp ratings. Most had lower output voltages and or higher amp ratings and were no closer a match than the Go Power ones. So no matter what the differences would mean a reduced output. Also I could not tell if some of the panel brands were RV rated (made for use on trailers). I know there will be a slight performance drop, but I believe I can live with that. Worse case I can change out the 160w to a matching 190 w if I find I need more panel output. I could then use the 160W and set up something in my shop to charge battery's. Another project for later.

Later when I decide to go lithium I will get into the other options/equipment. Hopefully I believe I will have enough panel capacity for the future, based on the way we camp. We are power frugal. I am a bit hiney retentive on lights being left on, etc. Like I said somewhere - I want to run the microwave and possibly a drip/Kcup coffee maker. With more battery's watch a few hours of TV.

Does this all make sense? It will be spring before I can install which gives me plenty of time to go over the future additions.

Thanks again for the help and suggestion for the future.

Keith

Merry Christmas and Happy New year all

[Yoda]

Howard howson Neal ncitro
Good morning

I was just reading the Ecoworthy thread and got to wondering(very dangerous). I think I know the answer that my GoPower solar controller wont handle the load, Should I wire the new panels in series withe existing one, or a series parallel set up. This is all confusing me. I was just going to do a parallel set up withe parts supplied. I guess in the future I could chang things is I used this controller https://www.victronenergy.com/solar-...-100-30-100-50

But for now
The 190's are 9.3A 23.4V
The controller will be a GP-PWM-30-UL.
Specifications

Nominal System Voltage	12V
Max Solar Array Current	30A
Battery Voltage Range	6V — 15.5V
Max. Solar panel input voltage	28V
Operating Consumption	6mA
Display Consumption	10mA
Temp. Compensation	-13mV/ºF / – 24mV/ºC
Operating Temperature	– 40 to 185ºF / – 40 to 85ºC
Humidity	99% N.C.
Dimensions (H x W x D):	4.25 x 7.48 x 1.38 in; 108 x 190 x 35 mm
Weight	10.6 oz; 300 g;
Maximum Wire Gauge:	#4 AWG
Warranty	5 years
Protection	Battery Reverse Polarity, Solar Array Reverse Polarity, Over temperature, Over Current

From what I remember (battery's series increases the voltage, while amperage stays the same - parallel voltage and amperage is the same (reduced in my case by the 160 unit) So with the max 28V I am stuck with parallel for now. Correct? Unless I get the victron controler and run the 190W panels in series separately? I know I am missing something.

BTW - to wire the panels together I am considering 8 AWG to lesson any voltage drop. Is this overkill?

Thanks Keith

Happy new year

On edit
I just ran across this YouTube of mixed panel installs https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jejro4zkl8I