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  • Lets discuss buss bars for solar battery wiring

    There is not much out there on this topic, and Even though some of you have responded to individual questions
    This document that was recommend opened my eyes as to wiring up battery's.
    "The correct way of connecting multiple batteries in parallel is to ensure that the total path of the current in and out of each battery is equal."
    https://www.victronenergy.com/upload...ited-EN.pdf page19

    So I thought to myself "Keith this should be simple - just get a buss bar" See what you all have done to me - I talking to myself

    OK so lets make an assumption I will have 4 100AH battle born battery's at some point in time, Each is capable of 100 amp output - more for short periods. So in a parallel they would be capable of 400amp output plus up to 800 amp surge (30seconds). The battery's have built in protection so I don't need to fuse each one. Al this would be tied into a Multiplus 3000.

    Some of you recommended this bus bar https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B0...?ie=UTF8&psc=1 however its only 250 amp rated and 20 amps per stud @ 12V (does not make sense as that only 80amps) . Maybe I am reading this wrong. While it probably has a safety factor of 2, the engineer in me wonders if the China engineers did that. Last thing I want is a fire below where we sleep. Spending a little more for a safety margin is worth the piece of mind.

    There are 400 amp and 600 amp and higher bus bars out there $$$ but I want something with a cover. I have not found a covered 600 amp buss bar.I could probably fabricate covers.

    But then I ran across this https://invertersrus.com/product/victron-lynx-power-in/ it is different that the distribution model in this thread https://gdrvowners.com/forum/solar/3...nx-distributor as it does not have the fuse connections or circuit board. Its 1000amp rated. Is this power in unit worth it?

    Now there are other ways to wire the battery's (back to page 19) "Diagonally" but I Believe I would need to up size to 4/0 cables The Victron power in unit would only need 2/0 in (4/0 out) which are easier to work with. To keep current path equal, I would make sure all the battery leads were the same length. Correct?

    So bottom line I have been looking at how folks have set up their systems, both here and elsewhere some with buss bars, others with just cables through a master fuse and switch.

    So what bus bars are folks using and has anyone used the Victron power in block.

    Thoughts / Abuse? all is good

    Thanks again - still trying to learn as much as I can.

    Keith
    Last edited by Yoda; 01-04-2021, 06:01 PM.
    2018 Reflection 150 Series 220RK 5th whee, Star White 2022 F350 King Ranch CC Long bed (HAL) (CCC 4062lbs), B&W 25K OEM Companion,. SteadyFast system, Trailer reverse lights, rear receiver spare tire holder, storage tube, sumo springs, Victron MultiPlus 12/120/3000, Solar, Custom 6K axles upgrade, and other modifications.

  • #2
    Keith,

    I used the brands recommended by Howard.

    Document Your Solar System (Please!) - Grand Design Owners Forums (gdrvowners.com)

    Post 7

    Jim

    Comment


    • #3
      Originally posted by MidwestCamper View Post
      Keith,

      I used the brands recommended by Howard.

      Document Your Solar System (Please!) - Grand Design Owners Forums (gdrvowners.com)

      Post 7

      Jim
      I think it was either TucsonJim or gbkims that recommended them to me!
      Forum moderators are not GD employees--we are volunteers and owners presumably just like yourself. Unless specifically mentioned otherwise, we have nothing to gain should you choose to purchase a product or engage a service we discuss on this forum.

      2017 Ford F-350 DRW, '19 315RLTSPlus

      Comment


      • #4
        Please understand I am not fault finding - just trying to understand how all the elements play together. While I can install sumo springs (as someone kind and dear mentioned) electrical ability is hit or miss at times. With guidance I can get there, but don't ask me how everything works
        2018 Reflection 150 Series 220RK 5th whee, Star White 2022 F350 King Ranch CC Long bed (HAL) (CCC 4062lbs), B&W 25K OEM Companion,. SteadyFast system, Trailer reverse lights, rear receiver spare tire holder, storage tube, sumo springs, Victron MultiPlus 12/120/3000, Solar, Custom 6K axles upgrade, and other modifications.

        Comment


        • #5
          I just researched this today because I was thinking the same thing. A 3000 watt inverter pulling 12V can pull up to 250 amps. If the nominal voltage is 12.8 volts, the current draw is less the 250 amps. Also depending on how you are wired there can be draws from the camper 12V system (lets say you are running your 12V DC Furnace, slides or some other fairly high draw).

          First the 250amps is continuous. Second I thought about running my feed wire to my Victron from the 350amp rated switch instead of the terminal block that the switch connects to (problem solved .... or is it). Then I thought about the ground terminal block (had forgotten about that).

          My thoughts are as follows:
          1) I have seen many installs using the same terminal blocks with no issues (4-6 battleborn batteries or more, 2 inverters, etc.) ->Do nothing and stop worrying
          2) Add a copper strip to the existing terminal block adding a second path for the flow of current - would definitely increase/double rating since the bolts/studs can take much higher current, the existing metal strip is the limiting factor given the size/thickness of it.
          3) Replace the positive and negative terminal blocks with ones of higher ratings (either Blue Sea or another one I saw) - $80-100 each x 2

          I’ll either do 1 (most likely) or 3 if I see a problem.

          I typically won’t be running my Victron inverter to the max. I don’t expect to have additional loads for such long periods of time where the 250 amp continuous rating will come into play given I have 300 A/Hr of batteries. Worse case is the terminal block metal strip will heat up and melt the plastic - have yet to hear anyone have this happen. Unlike a switch where the rating can cause arc-welding if too much current passes through, the terminal block would slowly heat up over time, so there likely would not be a quick catastrophic failure, but possibly over time heat could cause issues (ie: increased resistance in the connections).

          One can run a test with close to 3000 watts draw and measure the temperature of the wiring and terminal blocks. That would reveal if this is an actual problem. Solar Charging would offset the draw from the batteries, so I don’t see that as a problem because we cannot generate more than 85 amps charging on my controller, and if that was being consumed, that is less power being drawn from the batteries at any given times.

          After today’s research (as an Electrical Engineer I am not anticipating any issues. But time will tell.
          2021 Solitude S-2930 RL
          1200 watts solar, 3KW inverter, 400 A/Hr LiFePO4 batteries
          2020 Ford F-350 CC LB Crew Cab SRW 6.7L 4x4 3.55

          Comment


          • #6
            Originally posted by Yoda View Post

            Some of you recommended this bus bar https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B0...?ie=UTF8&psc=1 however its only 250 amp rated and 20 amps per stud @ 12V (does not make sense as that only 80amps) . Maybe I am reading this wrong. While it probably has a safety factor of 2, the engineer in me wonders if the China engineers did that. Last thing I want is a fire below where we sleep. Spending a little more for a safety margin is worth the piece of mind.


            Keith
            Keith - Take another look at those specifications. It's 250 amps per stud (3/8" stud) . And 20 amps per screw. I annotated the photo below so you can see the current limitation details. Note: There are four studs, and three screws.

            Click image for larger version  Name:	Buss Bar.JPG Views:	0 Size:	22.1 KB ID:	39456

            Jim
            Jim and Ginnie
            2024 Solitude 310GK
            GDRV Technical Forum Moderator
            GDRV Rally Support Coordinator

            Comment


            • #7
              Originally posted by TucsonJim View Post

              Keith - Take another look at those specifications. It's 250 amps per stud (3/8" stud) . And 20 amps per screw. I annotated the photo below so you can see the current limitation details. Note: There are four studs, and three screws.

              Click image for larger version Name:	Buss Bar.JPG Views:	0 Size:	22.1 KB ID:	39456

              Jim
              There you go my friend - great catch. Homer moment on me DOH!!!!!!!

              openrangeowners What your saying makes sense. What was throwing me is in the Victron Manual for the 3000 Multiplus they wanted 4/0 cable and a 400 amp fuse. Now I need to dig more into that and figure out why - maybe its the battery charging at 120 amp on top of the inverter at 250.....wait - battery's would not be charging if the inverter is in use unless connected to shore power and inverter is set up like a UPS - then the draw would be minimal. Am I off base - Why would the Multiplus need a 400 amp fuse and 4/0 wiring then? Especially in my case with a 30 amp service being fed from it.

              More questions for Victron

              Thanks
              Keith.
              2018 Reflection 150 Series 220RK 5th whee, Star White 2022 F350 King Ranch CC Long bed (HAL) (CCC 4062lbs), B&W 25K OEM Companion,. SteadyFast system, Trailer reverse lights, rear receiver spare tire holder, storage tube, sumo springs, Victron MultiPlus 12/120/3000, Solar, Custom 6K axles upgrade, and other modifications.

              Comment


              • #8
                Originally posted by Yoda View Post

                There you go my friend - great catch. Homer moment on me DOH!!!!!!!

                openrangeowners What your saying makes sense. What was throwing me is in the Victron Manual for the 3000 Multiplus they wanted 4/0 cable and a 400 amp fuse. Now I need to dig more into that and figure out why - maybe its the battery charging at 120 amp on top of the inverter at 250.....wait - battery's would not be charging if the inverter is in use unless connected to shore power and inverter is set up like a UPS - then the draw would be minimal. Am I off base - Why would the Multiplus need a 400 amp fuse and 4/0 wiring then? Especially in my case with a 30 amp service being fed from it.

                More questions for Victron

                Thanks
                Keith.
                According to https://www.solarkobo.com/post/victron-inverters, Victron inverters can withstand a peak output of up to 2.5 times the rated continous peak output for at least 1-2 seconds. For instance, a 3000W rated inverter can withstand a peak output surge of up to 7500W. This is enough for the short start-up spikes from pumps, compressors, inductors, etc. There's other references I've found in the past, so I'm confident this is right (or very close).

                7500W is a lot of current from the batteries. 7500/12=625Amps! According to Battle Born documentation, the 100aH batteries I have can double their maximum sustained output for 30 seconds. That means from my four 100aH batteries the four I have in parallel could potentially output 800 amps for 30 seconds! There's nothing I'd turn on that would require that much juice, so I'd want the 400A fuse in my system to open if that scenario should actually unfold 'cause something's gone seriously wrong.

                IMO (and it's what AMSolar provided to me), quality 4/0 cable from the inverter to the battery bank is the right size for a 12/3000W inverter. You could dissect that requirement/standard for days but what's the gain with using smaller gauge wire for (what should be) a very short run of wire? If you'll permit a bit of soap box here....I'm adamant that wiring and connectors are the last place to cut costs in a system. Get a smaller inverter and stick with quality wires if the budget must be trimmed.

                Below is from Victron's forum with a member asking almost the exact same question you've asked (one of many such examples found through a Google search):

                Click image for larger version

Name:	forum.JPG
Views:	858
Size:	25.5 KB
ID:	39469
                Forum moderators are not GD employees--we are volunteers and owners presumably just like yourself. Unless specifically mentioned otherwise, we have nothing to gain should you choose to purchase a product or engage a service we discuss on this forum.

                2017 Ford F-350 DRW, '19 315RLTSPlus

                Comment


                • #9
                  Originally posted by howson View Post

                  According to https://www.solarkobo.com/post/victron-inverters, Victron inverters can withstand a peak output of up to 2.5 times the rated continous peak output for at least 1-2 seconds. For instance, a 3000W rated inverter can withstand a peak output surge of up to 7500W. This is enough for the short start-up spikes from pumps, compressors, inductors, etc. There's other references I've found in the past, so I'm confident this is right (or very close).

                  7500W is a lot of current from the batteries. 7500/12=625Amps! According to Battle Born documentation, the 100aH batteries I have can double their maximum sustained output for 30 seconds. That means from my four 100aH batteries the four I have in parallel could potentially output 800 amps for 30 seconds! There's nothing I'd turn on that would require that much juice, so I'd want the 400A fuse in my system to open if that scenario should actually unfold 'cause something's gone seriously wrong.

                  IMO (and it's what AMSolar provided to me), quality 4/0 cable from the inverter to the battery bank is the right size for a 12/3000W inverter. You could dissect that requirement/standard for days but what's the gain with using smaller gauge wire for (what should be) a very short run of wire? If you'll permit a bit of soap box here....I'm adamant that wiring and connectors are the last place to cut costs in a system. Get a smaller inverter and stick with quality wires if the budget must be trimmed.

                  Below is from Victron's forum with a member asking almost the exact same question you've asked (one of many such examples found through a Google search):

                  Click image for larger version

Name:	forum.JPG
Views:	858
Size:	25.5 KB
ID:	39469
                  You are correct Howard - now throw in the aspect the inverter is only 93% efficient and the power needed jumps to roughly 670 amp. The 400 amp fuse makes sense.

                  I have taken your wisdom to heart on not skimping on the wiring, terminals, etc and still plan on 4 BB and the 3000 Multiplus, SWMBO did not say a thing when the solar panels showed up, so If I wait a while the other parts I need can show up over time. From reading depending on how the battery's are wired the cable needs change. That's why I ask about the buss bars. My gut still wonders about the ratings on the Amazon one after looking at the Victron ones (no covers) and others . But that is just me thinking too much as they seem to be working fine for folks.

                  One side question though - the 14.7V peak charge voltage the multiplus is capable of (I hope I got that right) for the Lithium battery's - will that high voltage hurt anything else in the unit (USB ports, lights, water pump) In other words anything needing 12V to operate. Just wondering . Never remember it being asked anywhere.

                  Everyone - thanks for the input here. Again I am overwhelmed with the knowledge base and the willingness of folks to share experience and information.And putting up with me.

                  Time to take a break

                  Thanks - Keith
                  2018 Reflection 150 Series 220RK 5th whee, Star White 2022 F350 King Ranch CC Long bed (HAL) (CCC 4062lbs), B&W 25K OEM Companion,. SteadyFast system, Trailer reverse lights, rear receiver spare tire holder, storage tube, sumo springs, Victron MultiPlus 12/120/3000, Solar, Custom 6K axles upgrade, and other modifications.

                  Comment


                  • #10
                    Accidental save
                    Colan Arnold
                    2016 Momentum 397TH
                    Full time since 2016

                    Comment


                    • #11
                      Originally posted by Yoda View Post
                      One side question though - the 14.7V peak charge voltage the multiplus is capable of (I hope I got that right) for the Lithium battery's - will that high voltage hurt anything else in the unit (USB ports, lights, water pump) In other words anything needing 12V to operate. Just wondering . Never remember it being asked anywhere.
                      Good question--I've wondered this myself.

                      I've had three of the OEM lights go bad (start to flicker). In the living room, all the OEM overhead lights would flicker with the dimmer at full bright. If I turned down the dimmer just a little the flicker stopped. Was that due to the BB's higher voltage compared to a typical wet cell? I don't know. The new lights I just put in work fine with the dimmer in any position.

                      What that suggests to me is it's more about the quality of the end component powered by the battery. The engineering of the end component to withstand over and under voltage situations is likely (a guess!) more an issue than the battery voltage difference.

                      Forum moderators are not GD employees--we are volunteers and owners presumably just like yourself. Unless specifically mentioned otherwise, we have nothing to gain should you choose to purchase a product or engage a service we discuss on this forum.

                      2017 Ford F-350 DRW, '19 315RLTSPlus

                      Comment


                      • #12
                        I keep my peak charging voltages set at 14.5 volts (not 14.6). BattleBorn specs say to set them to 14.5 or 14.6. This is configured for both the Solar Charge Controller and Inverter/Charger.
                        2021 Solitude S-2930 RL
                        1200 watts solar, 3KW inverter, 400 A/Hr LiFePO4 batteries
                        2020 Ford F-350 CC LB Crew Cab SRW 6.7L 4x4 3.55

                        Comment


                        • #13
                          Originally posted by howson View Post

                          Good question--I've wondered this myself.

                          I've had three of the OEM lights go bad (start to flicker). In the living room, all the OEM overhead lights would flicker with the dimmer at full bright. If I turned down the dimmer just a little the flicker stopped. Was that due to the BB's higher voltage compared to a typical wet cell? I don't know. The new lights I just put in work fine with the dimmer in any position.

                          What that suggests to me is it's more about the quality of the end component powered by the battery. The engineering of the end component to withstand over and under voltage situations is likely (a guess!) more an issue than the battery voltage difference.

                          I've had the same, and at first I thought about my charging voltage, but my replacements have all been fine, and a few of my stock lights are still fine as well. Time will tell but I'm inclined to blame the lights. No other 12v failures, the radio, furnace, water heater etc all work fine at the higher voltage.
                          Forum moderators are not GD employees--we are volunteers and owners presumably just like yourself. Unless specifically mentioned otherwise, we have nothing to gain should you choose to purchase a product or engage a service we discuss on this forum.

                          Neil Citro
                          2018 Reflection 28BH Pepwave
                          2019 F350 6.7L Long Bed Crew Cab

                          Comment


                          • #14
                            Yoda I discussed the bus bar in a different thread, but I did not run the inverter feeds through a bus bar. I wired the batteries in parallel with 4/0 and ran 4/0 through the shut off and fuse into the inverter. I also ran 4/0 to the shunt and then to the inverter. In another spot I came off the batteries and into a 100 amp fuse that feeds my bus bars for the rest of the DC loads in the trailer.
                            Forum moderators are not GD employees--we are volunteers and owners presumably just like yourself. Unless specifically mentioned otherwise, we have nothing to gain should you choose to purchase a product or engage a service we discuss on this forum.

                            Neil Citro
                            2018 Reflection 28BH Pepwave
                            2019 F350 6.7L Long Bed Crew Cab

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