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Thinking about upgrading my factory solar system

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  • #46
    ncitro with a bonded neutral - ground in the camper it will trip any GFCI as the GFCI will not see a "balanced" load between the hot and neutral. Bonding will cause load sharing between the neutral and the ground pre GFCI with causes the trip. (Unfortunately I have done this and learned the hard way how and why it was tripping).
    Tow Vehicle: 2018 GMC K2500 Denali Diesel
    Coach: 303RLS Delivered March 5, 2021

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    • #47
      Originally posted by wygieman View Post

      I put my hybrid inverter on one leg of the 50 amp circuit where all the circuits I want to have inverted power are. The difference is I do not join the neutral wires as you portray. I simply bypass the inverter/charger (with a morris connector) with the red hot line and take it to the power distribution panel. When the external power is on, the transfer switch opens, black, red, and white are all connected to the power distribution panel as normal and neutral is connected to ground back at the site power distribution. When the power is off, the inverter supplies power to black and white and neutral is connected to ground at the inverter where it should be.
      I tried to draw what I thought you were describing. Don't know if I have it correct.
      When Shore Power is present, the Neutral is bonded at the RV Power Pedestal. The Multiplus 12-3000 passes the Neutral to the AC Breaker Panel.
      Without Shore Power and Multiplus 12-3000 is Inverting, the Multiplus Opens its Transfer relay, Closes its Ground Relay to bond the Neutral and feed the AC Breaker Panel.

      Multiplus 12-3000 with Shore Power present:
      Click image for larger version

Name:	Multiplus 12-3000 with Shore Power.jpg
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ID:	44538


      Multiplus 12-3000 Inverting w/o Shore Power:
      Gene and Kim
      2015 Grand Design Reflection 317RST
      2017 RAM 3500 CC, LB, 4x2, 6.7L CTD

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      • #48
        Here is a sketch of what I did (its simple but the extents of my Autocad lol).

        Jlawles2 I think you must have me confused with another poster or maybe you misunderstood, but I did not bond the neutral and grounds, I left them isolated, but tied all the neutrals together (shore in, Multiplus out, Multiplus in, and out to the distribution panel).



        Neil Citro
        2018 Reflection 28bh
        2019 F350 6.7L Long Bed Crew Cab

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        • #49
          Originally posted by gbkims View Post

          I tried to draw what I thought you were describing. Don't know if I have it correct.
          When Shore Power is present, the Neutral is bonded at the RV Power Pedestal. The Multiplus 12-3000 passes the Neutral to the AC Breaker Panel.
          Without Shore Power and Multiplus 12-3000 is Inverting, the Multiplus Opens its Transfer relay, Closes its Ground Relay to bond the Neutral and feed the AC Breaker Panel.

          Multiplus 12-3000 with Shore Power present:
          Click image for larger version

Name:	Multiplus 12-3000 with Shore Power.jpg
Views:	93
Size:	104.0 KB
ID:	44538


          Multiplus 12-3000 Inverting w/o Shore Power:
          You are correct. That is what I was trying to describe and how my system is wired. Thanks for making it clear. I have a Magnasine instead of a Multiplus but it makes no difference in this case. I work around the failure of the inverter/charger that ncitro described by using standard plug connectors on the inverter AC connections. It is simple to unplug the input and output from the inverter/charger and plug them together to completely by pass it on failure. Old school but the failures do happen. Unfortunately on the Magnasine, it refuses to charge anything below 9 volts so if the Lithium battery manager shuts down, I need to bypass the inverter/charger to get them restarted. Apparently that isn’t true of the Multiplus.
          2018 Reflection 303rls
          2017 Ford F350 SRW

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          • #50
            Yes I had a Magnum previously and the way I managed that was to flip on the factory converter. The Magnum saw that voltage and it's charge would then come on.
            Neil Citro
            2018 Reflection 28bh
            2019 F350 6.7L Long Bed Crew Cab

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            • #51
              Originally posted by ncitro View Post
              Yes I had a Magnum previously and the way I managed that was to flip on the factory converter. The Magnum saw that voltage and it's charge would then come on.
              Exactly what I do. Unfortunately the way the inverter/charger shuts down on the dead battery fault, there is no AC power to the rv. In order to power the converter, I have bypass the inverter/charger. I wish I known the behavior before I selected the Magnum.
              2018 Reflection 303rls
              2017 Ford F350 SRW

              Comment


              • #52
                Originally posted by wygieman View Post

                Exactly what I do. Unfortunately the way the inverter/charger shuts down on the dead battery fault, there is no AC power to the rv. In order to power the converter, I have bypass the inverter/charger. I wish I known the behavior before I selected the Magnum.
                Right. In my case I was usually looking to charge them, which meant I had shore power available. I had brought my main shore power into a new distribution panel which fed my non inverter loads and the Magnum. The output of the Magnum then fed the factory distribution panel with all of my inverter loads. I put the factory converter on the new panel, so it had power regardless of what was going on with the Magnum or batteries (if I had shore power). I just kept the breaker off for it most of the time and turned it on if I needed it.

                An option would be a cheap battery charger wired to your batteries, even just a little trickle charger. If they shut down, just plug it in and the Magnum should see it and its charger should come on. Also maybe fire up your tow vehicle and plug in the seven pin harness that might do the trick as well. Not ideal for sure.
                Neil Citro
                2018 Reflection 28bh
                2019 F350 6.7L Long Bed Crew Cab

                Comment


                • #53
                  Originally posted by ncitro View Post

                  Right. In my case I was usually looking to charge them, which meant I had shore power available. I had brought my main shore power into a new distribution panel which fed my non inverter loads and the Magnum. The output of the Magnum then fed the factory distribution panel with all of my inverter loads. I put the factory converter on the new panel, so it had power regardless of what was going on with the Magnum or batteries (if I had shore power). I just kept the breaker off for it most of the time and turned it on if I needed it.

                  An option would be a cheap battery charger wired to your batteries, even just a little trickle charger. If they shut down, just plug it in and the Magnum should see it and its charger should come on. Also maybe fire up your tow vehicle and plug in the seven pin harness that might do the trick as well. Not ideal for sure.
                  I could use the truck for sure as a backup. I have the Renogy DC to DC charger installed which has a “reactivation feature to awaken a sleeping lithium battery” according to its manual. Apologies to the OP for the thread hijack.
                  2018 Reflection 303rls
                  2017 Ford F350 SRW

                  Comment


                  • #54
                    Originally posted by wygieman View Post

                    I could use the truck for sure as a backup. I have the Renogy DC to DC charger installed which has a “reactivation feature to awaken a sleeping lithium battery” according to its manual. Apologies to the OP for the thread hijack.
                    I doubt bertschb (Brian) minds--he's gathering info as fast as his processor can store digits. My "drive" is equivalent to a 5400rpm laptop's...hopefully his is more like a PCI 4 enabled SSD.

                    So one more on this sub-topic since I hope he doesn't mind: a Victron GX setup has a similar issue. If the Multiplus is connected to a GX device the GX must be powered up for the Multiplus to work.

                    I know this because I inadvertently "flattened" my Battle Borns (BB) so the Battery Management System (BMS) internal to the BBs turned them off. That shut off the GX. Which in turn shut off the Multiplus. How do you get the Multiplus to turn on if the GX won't power up because the BBs won't stay "up" long enough for the GX to boot up and configure itself?

                    Turned out to be simple: disconnect the GX device's comm cable running to the Multiplus. The BBs would come on just long enough for the Multiplus to "see" there were batteries and voila', it started charging the batteries. (I was on shore power, obviously.)
                    Forum moderators are not GD employees--we are volunteers and owners presumably just like yourself. Unless specifically mentioned otherwise, we have nothing to gain should you choose to purchase a product or engage a service we discuss on this forum.

                    Howard, 2017 Ford F-350 DRW, '19 315RLTSPlus

                    Comment


                    • #55
                      Originally posted by ncitro View Post
                      Here is a sketch of what I did (its simple but the extents of my Autocad lol).

                      Jlawles2 I think you must have me confused with another poster or maybe you misunderstood, but I did not bond the neutral and grounds, I left them isolated, but tied all the neutrals together (shore in, Multiplus out, Multiplus in, and out to the distribution panel).


                      I was referring to post 45 where you stated it trips the GFCI. "As I stated, it does trip my GFCI in my garage". You said that you did not bond the neutrals and grounds. I had a similar issue with a device doing just that for me. Check with a meter and see if for some reason you have a device bonding the neutral and ground for you.
                      Tow Vehicle: 2018 GMC K2500 Denali Diesel
                      Coach: 303RLS Delivered March 5, 2021

                      Comment


                      • #56
                        Originally posted by Jlawles2 View Post

                        I was referring to post 45 where you stated it trips the GFCI. "As I stated, it does trip my GFCI in my garage". You said that you did not bond the neutrals and grounds. I had a similar issue with a device doing just that for me. Check with a meter and see if for some reason you have a device bonding the neutral and ground for you.
                        That's a good thought, I'll check it. I have a feeling it may have something to do with a setting in power assist somewhere. In that scenerio it's using shore power as well as inverting, I'm not sure if it would be bonding the neutral to ground or not. I've always thought that's the issue, but it hasn't ever been enough of a problem to look into it.

                        Neil Citro
                        2018 Reflection 28bh
                        2019 F350 6.7L Long Bed Crew Cab

                        Comment


                        • #57
                          Originally posted by gbkims View Post
                          I tried to draw what I thought you were describing.
                          gbkims

                          Thank you so much for creating this diagram! It's the only one I've found that makes sense to me and fits my scenario of a single Multiplus connected to one leg of a 50 amp panel. And I've spent HOURS looking.
                          Brian & Kellie
                          2020 Grand Design Solitude 310GK-R, FBP, MORryde IS w/ disc brakes, 1,460w solar
                          2020 Ford F-350 Platinum SRW PSD Tremor, 60g TF fuel tank, Hensley BD3-F air bag hitch

                          Previous setups:
                          2019 Grand Design Solitude 373FB-R, 2019 Ford F-350 Platinum DRW Powerstroke, Hensley BD5 air bag hitch
                          2016 Grand Design Reflection 318RST, 2016 GMC 3500 Denali SRW Duramax, Hensley BD3 air bag hitch

                          Comment


                          • #58
                            Originally posted by bertschb View Post
                            gbkims

                            Thank you so much for creating this diagram! It's the only one I've found that makes sense to me and fits my scenario of a single Multiplus connected to one leg of a 50 amp panel. And I've spent HOURS looking.
                            gbkims = Guru Extraordinaire, for sure! (I prefer "Gandalf" but the reference may be lost on too many folks.)
                            Forum moderators are not GD employees--we are volunteers and owners presumably just like yourself. Unless specifically mentioned otherwise, we have nothing to gain should you choose to purchase a product or engage a service we discuss on this forum.

                            Howard, 2017 Ford F-350 DRW, '19 315RLTSPlus

                            Comment


                            • #59
                              OK, another question for the electrical genius's here...

                              To recap, I'm replacing all of my factory solar system equipment. I plan to install a single Multiplus and run one leg of the shore power straight to the panel and the other leg to the inverter as shown so expertly in gbkims wiring diagram in post #47.

                              I need to make sure my sub panel is powered when using the Victron Multiplus on battery power. Luckily, the breaker for the sub panel is on the same leg I plan to power with the Multiplus. Currently, when I flip the breaker on the main panel labeled "Sub panel", it cuts power to the sub panel which of course is what I expect to happen.

                              My question is how is the sub panel wired to the main panel?

                              In looking at the factory solar system wiring diagram below, it shows a wire going from the main panel into the transfer switch. Is this how the sub panel is connected to the panel? In other words is there actually a wire leading from the sub panel breaker in the main panel going to the transfer switch? If so, would I theoretically be able to connect the two wires that go into and out of the transfer switch to provide power to the sub panel?

                              Does this make any sense?

                              What I'm trying to do is simply connect the sub panel to the main panel now as part of my project. I can then remove the factory inverter and transfer switch. I don't have the new inverter yet so that part of the project is a couple weeks away at least.

                              Click image for larger version  Name:	310 Factory sub panel wiring diagram.png Views:	0 Size:	464.2 KB ID:	44868
                              Brian & Kellie
                              2020 Grand Design Solitude 310GK-R, FBP, MORryde IS w/ disc brakes, 1,460w solar
                              2020 Ford F-350 Platinum SRW PSD Tremor, 60g TF fuel tank, Hensley BD3-F air bag hitch

                              Previous setups:
                              2019 Grand Design Solitude 373FB-R, 2019 Ford F-350 Platinum DRW Powerstroke, Hensley BD5 air bag hitch
                              2016 Grand Design Reflection 318RST, 2016 GMC 3500 Denali SRW Duramax, Hensley BD3 air bag hitch

                              Comment


                              • #60
                                bertschb -- think of the wire going to the sub-panel's transfer switch / inverter as a normal circuit with a few outlets on it. (I have no idea why GD calls it a "Solar power circuit", just confuses people.) Don't treat it any differently from any other circuit controlled by a circuit breaker off the main panel. Get the Multiplus' output to that Main Breaker on the correct leg and everything on that leg will work.

                                Just don't forget to unplug the OEM's inverter.

                                A thought...is the Transfer Switch normally closed (powers the sub-panel even if the transfer switch does not have power)? Might want to test that by turning off the OEM inverter or unplugging the transfer switch.

                                If the sub panel doesn't work without power to the transfer switch from the OEM inverter, the transfer switch is normally open. That will mean a workaround will be required.
                                Forum moderators are not GD employees--we are volunteers and owners presumably just like yourself. Unless specifically mentioned otherwise, we have nothing to gain should you choose to purchase a product or engage a service we discuss on this forum.

                                Howard, 2017 Ford F-350 DRW, '19 315RLTSPlus

                                Comment

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