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G0 Power TS-30 transfer switch wiring corundum. Could Go Power be wrong?

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  • G0 Power TS-30 transfer switch wiring corundum. Could Go Power be wrong?

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    I thought a separate thread was in order for this - might help others. If this belongs in electrical, please move it.

    Note: I did talk to Go Power about this and was told Detail A is how they say to wire it and claim that shore power is dominate.They say when Shore power is off then the inverter can be used. But as pictured the solenoid is always energized using shore power and generating heat. There is no big heat sink either. I asked what happens if the solenoid fails and was told it wont. If solenoid fails only the inverter can be used. However the controller (battery charger) will still work and provide 12V to the battery. I am going to call their expert on transfer switches Monday to verify

    So being the conservative engineer I am I am not a fan of the solenoid being energized when shore power is on. In my electronics classes I was told the less time a solenoid is activated the better. GP wiring diagram suggests the opposite

    I need the electrical gurus to way in on this. I got out my trusty 50 year old Craftsman analog multi-meter. The diagram above is how GP says to wire the relay. In this configuration the relay solenoid is always on when shore power is on. If relay fails shore power is turned OFF The solenoid power is off of connections 5 and 6 so when they are hot the relay closes. In my mind this is how not to wire this. GP says the relay is designed to be powered 24/7. Not buying that.

    Testing
    7 and 3 are connected (solenoid off) Same for 8 and 4 With solenoid closed they are open. This verifiers the normally closed status,

    5 and 3 are open as are 6 and 4. When solenoid is closed they are closed. Power to the solenoid comes from 5 and 6

    Now in the owners manual page 5

    2.5.2 INSTALLATION BETWEEN POWER CORD AND GENERATOR (CONFIGURATIONS A, B)
    1. Connect the power cord leads to terminal 7 and 8 (on the narrow end of the relay); these are the normally closed (N.C.) contacts. (See Diagram 1 on page 6 for numbered locations).

    2. Connect the generator leads to terminals 5 and 6 (on the shoulders of the relay); these are the normally open (N.O.) contacts.

    3. Connect output to panel to terminals 3 and 4 (on the wide end of the relay). The TS-30 is designed with a time delay module to provide generators a brief warm-up period before supplying the load. See Diagram 1 on the next page

    Source https://s3-us-west-2.amazonaws.com/c...N_GP-TS-30.pdf

    Diagram 1 is same as above. But does not match the description in 2.5.2

    In this case (description in 2.5.2) shore power is tied to 7 and 8 and passes through to 3 an 4 without the solenoid powered. The converter would also be tied to 7 and 8. It would be on when shore power is on. My inverter (treating same as generator would be connected to 5 and 6. When turned on relay closes sending power to 3 and 4. With relay closed, 7 and 8 would still power the converter unless shore power is OFF. However if shore power does happen to be on, the converter is still on, but should not interfere with the inverter as it is not interconnected to it circuit wise. Inverter would provide AC and not be powering the converter. Also shore power is disconnected from the distribution panel

    Bottom line I think I need to wire per 2.5.2 and not the diagram above. Or am I worried over nothing?


    If I use 2.5.2 and wire shore power to 7 and 8 then the if solenoid goes bad shore power will always work. Inverter would be wired to 5 and 6, When inverter is on solenoid gets power and disconnects 7 and 8. To me this saves wear and tear on the solenoid and does not waste power. (solenoid always on)

    Let me know folks how these are normally wired in your systems. I know Victron has them built in, but when is the solenoid activated. While it drove me nuts, the testing was actually fun.

    Thanks
    Keith - Have a great weekend folks


    2018 Reflection 150 Series 220RK 5th wheel. Reese R20 Titan hitch, Steadyfast system, 2004 F350 King Ranch dually

  • #2
    Yoda

    The diagram does indeed indicate that when shore power is present the solenoid will close, passing power. Without checking, I'm fairly certain that's how my Progressive EMS and Smart ATS work. The reason I can be so confident is when inside the camper after power is applied there is a distinctive "clunk" once the EMS is happy with power and a significant "THUNK" when the Smart ATS engages.

    That's also how I configured all of my solid state relays--when shore power is present they close and pass power to non-critical components. If I'm away from the camper and shore power fails, the relays disconnect automatically turning off the non-critical systems to conserve battery power.

    Bottom line: I personally would not be overly concerned that the relay is engaged when shore power is present. (The relay itself may draw a very small load depending on it's configuration. The solid state relays I use draw milliamps to close the relay.)

    Howard

    P.S. I don't understand ...

    If solenoid fails only the inverter can be used. However the controller (battery charger) will still work and provide 12V to the battery.


    If the relay fails (I assume open), shore power will not pass to the charger through the NO contacts. When the batteries are out of power (inverter is the only way you're getting 120vAC and batteries are providing 12vDC) you're done. Of course, bypassing the transfer switch is what you'd need to do to get shore power to the charger and distribution panel, but then you wouldn't be able to use the inverter without swapping the wiring around or replacing the transfer switch.
    Forum moderators are not GD employees--we are volunteers and owners presumably just like yourself. Unless specifically mentioned otherwise, we have nothing to gain should you choose to purchase a product or engage a service we discuss on this forum.

    Howard, 2017 Ford F-350 DRW, '19 315RLTSPlus

    Comment


    • #3
      If I’m understanding you right the downside of what you want to do is you’ll have to manually turn the inverter on and off. In the Victron Andy the Magnum I had before you leave the inverter on all the time and it kicks in automatically if shore power drops out. This happens so fast it’s virtually a UPS. My microwave clock never even resets. This may not be a big deal to you, just something to keep in mind.

      I’m with you I’m not powering the solenoid 24/7. Those do exist, but they would have a large heat sink like you say and be expensive. Maybe the guy you get Monday will be better, but I’d throw away any information from someone who told you the solenoid will never fail lol. Everything fails eventually.
      Neil Citro
      2018 Reflection 28bh
      2019 F350 6.7L Long Bed Crew Cab

      Comment


      • #4
        Originally posted by howson View Post
        Yoda



        P.S. I don't understand ...

        If solenoid fails only the inverter can be used. However the controller (battery charger) will still work and provide 12V to the battery.


        If wired the way GP says (diagram above) with Shore power and the Converter wired to 5 and 6 then If the solenoid fails, shore power will not pass through to the output 3 and 4 connections and onto the distribution panel. However 5 and 6 are still hot (shore power still on) giving power to the Converter (trailer will still have 12vbattery charging). Also if solenoid fails then 7 and 8 will work for the inverter as those connections are normally closed.

        In a nut shell if I have explained it right if the solenoid fails I will still have the converter able to charge the battery's and be able to use the inverter if needed. I guess that is not too bad a failure mode and is the same operating mode (except for battery charging) if there is no shore power come to think of it.

        And if the inverter is wired to 7 and 8 with shore power on and solenoid working, nothing bad will happen if the inverter is turned There is no where for the power to go.

        Now I am confused

        Ill sleep on it.

        On edit. I just noticed something. In case of solenoid failure and if I still want shore power(110) to the trailer, it would be very easy to place a plastic shim under the 7 and 8 contacts to hold the solenoid down in (energized position) closing contacts with 5 and 6. Hmmmmm
        Last edited by Yoda; 02-12-2021, 10:39 PM.
        2018 Reflection 150 Series 220RK 5th wheel. Reese R20 Titan hitch, Steadyfast system, 2004 F350 King Ranch dually

        Comment


        • #5
          Yoda

          I had to "see" it, so colored the schematic. Sure 'nuff, you're right. That's an interesting relay failure mode.

          Hope this helps...(and it's right).

          Howard

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          Last edited by howson; 02-13-2021, 05:12 PM.
          Forum moderators are not GD employees--we are volunteers and owners presumably just like yourself. Unless specifically mentioned otherwise, we have nothing to gain should you choose to purchase a product or engage a service we discuss on this forum.

          Howard, 2017 Ford F-350 DRW, '19 315RLTSPlus

          Comment


          • #6
            Originally posted by howson View Post
            I had to "see" it, so colored the schematic. Sure 'nuff, you're right. That's an interesting relay failure mode.
            Good grief Howard - your a genius

            WOW - seeing this in color has made me rethink everything. If I only had 1/100 of you drawing talent.
            I think Go Power has it right after all. There is really not a down side to wiring it per Detail A in the first post. Thank you so much for doing this. I really owe you one or more on this one. And if it failure does happen all I need is a plastic shim to make things work on shore power (think plastic knife) until I can get the solenoid replaced.

            Man this place is great.

            Thank you my friend - how do I ever repay you?
            Keith
            Last edited by howson; 02-13-2021, 05:12 PM.
            2018 Reflection 150 Series 220RK 5th wheel. Reese R20 Titan hitch, Steadyfast system, 2004 F350 King Ranch dually

            Comment


            • #7
              You're very welcome, Yoda

              I do see an issue with the transfer switch if you leave your inverter on all the time. With the output of the transfer switch going to the Distribution Panel you may end up with a problem similar to what I documented in my Inverter Overloading thread.

              Consider the scenario where the air conditioner is running (on shore power) and you step away from the trailer to visit with a fellow camper or whatever. Shore power cuts off (without your knowledge) and the inverter immediately kicks in--trying to power the air conditioner. This could easily overload the inverter and shut it down (at worst) or power the a/c unit for a brief time until the batteries are flat.

              That leads me to the conclusion that if you'll have to remember to turn the inverter on and off, the manual transfer switch that TucsonJim installed could be an alternative to consider. He documented his solution in the Inverter, Transfer Switch, and Breaker Panel Modifications - Unique Solutions thread.

              Howard
              Forum moderators are not GD employees--we are volunteers and owners presumably just like yourself. Unless specifically mentioned otherwise, we have nothing to gain should you choose to purchase a product or engage a service we discuss on this forum.

              Howard, 2017 Ford F-350 DRW, '19 315RLTSPlus

              Comment


              • #8
                Originally posted by howson View Post
                You're very welcome, Yoda

                I do see an issue with the transfer switch if you leave your inverter on all the time. With the output of the transfer switch going to the Distribution Panel you may end up with a problem similar to what I documented in my Inverter Overloading thread.

                Consider the scenario where the air conditioner is running (on shore power) and you step away from the trailer to visit with a fellow camper or whatever. Shore power cuts off (without your knowledge) and the inverter immediately kicks in--trying to power the air conditioner. This could easily overload the inverter and shut it down (at worst) or power the a/c unit for a brief time until the batteries are flat.

                That leads me to the conclusion that if you'll have to remember to turn the inverter on and off, the manual transfer switch that TucsonJim installed could be an alternative to consider. He documented his solution in the Inverter, Transfer Switch, and Breaker Panel Modifications - Unique Solutions thread.

                Howard
                Thanks Howard
                The inverter will be on its own illuminated switch and always be OFF unless it is needed. And when use would be for a brief period of time like microwave use, or hair dryer. It is good to know that if the switch gets bumped while on shore power that I wont have an immediate inverter melt down.

                Thanks again for all your help
                Keith

                On edit.
                When boon-docking and running the inverter there is one thing I will need to remember and that is not have the fridge on auto, but specifically set to LP if I don't want it to auto switch over to AC. I usually have is set on auto so when I plug into shore power it switches over and saves propane. This is not an issue for me though as the fridge lights and inverter monitoring panel will remind me of what I need to do. I might print out a label to remind me and stick by the fridge control panel.

                Inverter https://www.etrailer.com/RV-Inverter.../34278157.html
                Remote switch https://www.etrailer.com/Accessories.../34279999.html
                Unless there is something better out there

                After sleeping on this I am going to go with the Go Power recommended wiring layout (Detail A post #1) I will also be using 10 awg wiring. If Murphy shows up its not the end of the world. I just need to remember to keep a plastic knife handy .
                Last edited by Yoda; 02-13-2021, 12:48 PM.
                2018 Reflection 150 Series 220RK 5th wheel. Reese R20 Titan hitch, Steadyfast system, 2004 F350 King Ranch dually

                Comment


                • #9
                  I noticed the Go Power! GPTS-30 Prewired is like a customized version of the Progressive Dynamics PD5110 30A ATS (a bit like how AM Solar customizes the PD52 ATS).
                  The Time Delay/Relay Control circuit board appears to be wired the same on both the GPTS-30 and the PD5110.
                  The PD's circuit board's Black, White wires are Hot, Neutral that gets rectified to DC for the relay coil control via the Red, Yellow wires.


                  PD5110 Inside Cover Wiring Diagram:
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                  Relay Control DC Out to Coil:
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                  Coil Energized, Top View:
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                  Enclosure Rear, Coil Energized:
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                  Gene and Kim
                  2015 Grand Design Reflection 317RST
                  2017 RAM 3500 CC, LB, 4x2, 6.7L CTD

                  Comment


                  • #10
                    Originally posted by gbkims View Post
                    I noticed the Go Power! GPTS-30 Prewired is like a customized version of the Progressive Dynamics PD5110 30A ATS (a bit like how AM Solar customizes the PD52 ATS).
                    Gene - you are correct. the GP unit is made by Progressive Dynamics
                    Last edited by howson; 02-13-2021, 06:02 PM. Reason: Trimmed quote to make response easier to read.
                    2018 Reflection 150 Series 220RK 5th wheel. Reese R20 Titan hitch, Steadyfast system, 2004 F350 King Ranch dually

                    Comment


                    • #11
                      Thanks, Gene and Howard for a great education on the Go Power 30 amp transfer switch. I had problems with our 1,000 watt inverter (it may not have been wired properly by the dealer) and the cable from battery two to the inverter seemed undersized, so I replaced the battery cables, added a Go Power 30 amp transfer switch and a 4K Giandel inverter. On our trip Friday, the refer seemed quite happy with this system -- it has good headroom. While I do not have a fraction of your electrical expertise, I did follow the Go Power wiring diagram for the external power, the inverter and the refer output.

                      I do have two questions. Should I leave the inverter on? I usually use the remote switch. Second, I keep spares for several items -- a spare converter, water pump, lube plate and breakaway switch. Is there a substantial risk of failure of the Go Power transfer switch? Should I buy a spare?

                      Charles
                      2021 Solitude 310 GK-R. 2020 F-250LB, 7.3L, 4.30, Reese 27K, 26K GCWR, USAF (Ret.)

                      Comment


                      • #12
                        Originally posted by Crespro View Post
                        Should I leave the inverter on? I usually use the remote switch.
                        First, thank you for the kind words. I'm just happy I can contribute to the greater Grand Design community (and enjoy it, as if you couldn't tell).

                        If you've read the Inverter Overloading thread I linked in my response to Keith, you'll understand when my answer is "no". Too easy to overload the inverter or inadvertently drain your batteries flat. Been there, done that.

                        Originally posted by Crespro View Post
                        Is there a substantial risk of failure of the Go Power transfer switch? Should I buy a spare?
                        My crystal ball is a little foggy on this but IMO no, don't buy a spare. What I would do is plan out how to bypass the transfer switch in a failure scenario and document the process in a way that you will understand (and be able to quickly reference) in the unlikely event of a failure.

                        Your list of spares is interesting. What individuals have chosen to carry for spares might make a good thread in Country Campers 's Tools, Parts & Other Essential Items (Lists) channel.
                        Forum moderators are not GD employees--we are volunteers and owners presumably just like yourself. Unless specifically mentioned otherwise, we have nothing to gain should you choose to purchase a product or engage a service we discuss on this forum.

                        Howard, 2017 Ford F-350 DRW, '19 315RLTSPlus

                        Comment


                        • #13
                          Originally posted by Crespro View Post
                          Thanks, Gene and Howard for a great education on the Go Power 30 amp transfer switch. I had problems with our 1,000 watt inverter (it may not have been wired properly by the dealer) and the cable from battery two to the inverter seemed undersized, so I replaced the battery cables, added a Go Power 30 amp transfer switch and a 4K Giandel inverter. On our trip Friday, the refer seemed quite happy with this system -- it has good headroom. While I do not have a fraction of your electrical expertise, I did follow the Go Power wiring diagram for the external power, the inverter and the refer output.

                          I do have two questions. Should I leave the inverter on? I usually use the remote switch. Second, I keep spares for several items -- a spare converter, water pump, lube plate and breakaway switch. Is there a substantial risk of failure of the Go Power transfer switch? Should I buy a spare?

                          Charles
                          Charles
                          One way to bypass this transfer switch based on the drawings and getting inside the unit to the relay (to get shore power if solenoid fails) is to place a plastic wedge under #7 and #8 contacts. This will force the solenoid down to make contact with #5 and #6. Now in failure mode as diagrammed above by Howard the inverter wold be connected same as if no shore power is available. Hope this helps

                          The other way if the unit fails and you want shore power is pull shore power off of 5 and 6 and wire directly to 3 and 4 or 7 and 8 (but remove the inverter wires from 7 and 8 at the same time) I don't think it would be good to have them wired together.

                          If I am wrong folks, please chime in.

                          Trying to help
                          Keith
                          2018 Reflection 150 Series 220RK 5th wheel. Reese R20 Titan hitch, Steadyfast system, 2004 F350 King Ranch dually

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