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Garage Tiedown Mod Question

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  • Garage Tiedown Mod Question

    Okay, I may be over-analyzing this, but it's what I do...

    In our garage, I want to add E-Track to the floor to tie down our Can Am Maverick X3. The plan is to mark the center of each tire and center a 4' track under each wheel. The premise is to tie down each tire to the floor using the track and compatable straps at all 4 corners. The SxS is 72" wide, so it's doubtful (I haven't crawled under the RV yet as it's in storage) that the track will be able to be screwed directly into the frame. I'm thinking the floor should be frame mounted sufficiently to allow me to screw the track into the floor using a sufficient amount of screws. I understand the plywood floor of the garage is 1" thick plywood. This should be able to secure the SxS and not allow any movement. The SxS weighs about 1,800 lbs, so roughly 450 lbs per tire/track. The screw holes on the track are spaced 2" apart, so on a 48" track, there should be 48 screw holes (24 per side). Here's where I keep flip flopping. I was thinking of one screw in every hole, but then got to wondering if that would "perforate" the plywood and actually make it weaker than using every other hole (4 screws on each end then every other hole). Like I said, I think I'm over-analyzing here.

    So, do y'all think the floor is sufficient to secure the load? I also thought about adding some extra screws floor to frame, but that may be unnecessary overkill. Also, do y'all think the every other hole is sufficient? Just looking for feedback.

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    2018 Silverado LTZ 3500HD CC LB 4X4 DRW Duramax/Allison
    2019 Momentum 381M w/Full Body Paint
    2016 Can Am Spyder F3 Limited Special Series
    2021 Can Am Maverick X3 Turbo RR
    2016 Wrangler Hard Rock Unlimited
    1997 Bayliner Capri 1950 affectionately named Skinnydipper
    MSgt, USAF (Ret)

  • #2
    Ready2Retire

    I would drop the under belly and see where you will be attaching to. You may be able to bolt right into a cross member. I would also add a plate to the bottom to secure your e-track to by bolting thru the e-track , thru the floor and thru the added plate. This will spread the load across the whole plate and e-track instead of just each screw. But I may be over thinking this as well.

    Brian
    Brian & Michelle
    2018 Reflection 29RS Oct.17 build date, EMS-HW50C , Lippert Remote
    2015 Chevy 3500HD CC LB Duramax , Reese Elite 18K

    Comment


    • #3
      Where are the stress points. Downward weight per wheel is 450lpbs. But what makes that 450 move? Is it 450 up on the bounce, 450 forward on the brake, 450 back on the accelerate (if it is I want your truck).

      You may be overstressing, pun intended. While I would love to have all of my tie downs bolted into the frame I have to deal with a fuel tank and such. Compromise, so I have put back plates under my tie downs. I will have to pull about 6 square inches of flooring up in order for my tie downs to come loose. And believe me, those puppies don't always fit where I want them. Pulling my toy hauler fuel tank and pumping apparatus was a pain. But drilling in to same would have been worse.

      PS, you are one of the few people I have run across with more toys than I have.
      2017 Momentum 376, 2019 Ford F450
      2018 Yamaha XT250 Dual Sport Motorcycle
      Kota the dog and KC the Kitty Cat

      Comment


      • #4
        You can contact GD Customer service with your VIN and get a drawing of your floor structure. But the best way to locate the cross members is as Country Campers suggested. I wouldn't be too worried about perforating the plywood with a screw every 2", but I would get tired of putting in screws that aren't needed. The screws are basically to resist shear during breaking (mostly) and starting, and uplift on rough roads. I would focus my fasteners in the area of the tires and base the number on the tensile strength of the fasteners and their pull out. I also like d2reid idea of a plate on the bottom of the plywood and bolting through this. Good luck
        John
        2018 Momentum 395M
        2018 Ram 3500 Dually
        Every day is a Saturday, but with no lawn to mow.

        Comment


        • #5
          Thanks for the input! Country Campers that's a good suggestion. I do need to crawl around under the RV and see where the cross members land. I could certainly adjust the tracks to make sure the holes line up with the braces and anchor to them.

          d2reid My biggest concern is forward and back stress in case of a hard stop or I get rearended. My truck doesn't accelerate fast enough for rearward stress under normal circumstances. If there are bounce stresses, I need to get off that road and find another route, although tying down unsprung weight does allow the Mavericks suspension to do its thing without stressing the straps. Again, I need to crawl aroung underneath and se where everything lines up. Tying into cross members, even spaced apart, should be sufficient where backing plates would not be necessary. Trying not to over-engineer everything.

          P.S. You and your lovely wife seem to be more athletic than Audrey and I. So where you're doers, we're riders. If we count your ski's, rock climbing stuff, kayaks, etc. I think we're even toy wise... LOL

          JBill9694 I'm not too worried about the amount of screws 'cause I got power-tools! LOL I was thinking #12 panhead screws 1 1/4" long to compensate for the thickness of the track, rubber floor covering, and nominal 1"plywood. This would maximize plywood penetration without too much (if any) poke through. I'd hate to run a screw through anything important.

          Again, all great suggestions. Thanks! Sometimes one needs to just say it outloud to think it through.

          John
          2018 Silverado LTZ 3500HD CC LB 4X4 DRW Duramax/Allison
          2019 Momentum 381M w/Full Body Paint
          2016 Can Am Spyder F3 Limited Special Series
          2021 Can Am Maverick X3 Turbo RR
          2016 Wrangler Hard Rock Unlimited
          1997 Bayliner Capri 1950 affectionately named Skinnydipper
          MSgt, USAF (Ret)

          Comment


          • #6
            Ready2Retire Cate&Rob John, Rob may be able to comment on tying down un-sprung weight. Yes it's better to let the suspension of the Toy do it's job, but I think it actually allows for more dynamic forces into the rail system (again Rob may be more informed). As for the length of screw, for full effectiveness of screws and nails, full penetration is required to activate the bottom most layer of plywood to help prevent de-lamination. You will probably be good if you can use oversized fender washers on the bottom side of the plywood instead of trying to get plate back there and match drill to the track. Again you just need surface area to prevent pull through and de-lamination.

            I'd consider https://www.etrailer.com/E-Track/Eri...EM09162-2.html in front of the tires and over the tire tie downs. Something like this https://www.macscustomtiedowns.com/c...32324074176586 as a singe strap may walk its way off the tire if not perfectly in the right spot.
            Joseph
            Tow
            Vehicle: 2018 GMC K2500 Denali Diesel
            Coach: 303RLS Delivered March 5, 2021
            South of Houston Texas

            Comment


            • #7
              This is definitely a question that gets into complex dynamic loads. The reaction of an 1800 lb mass during heavy braking is definitely not a static 450 lbs per tire! Anything that can move freely and then hit the end of its travel will exert a shock load many times the static load. The ideal tie down would be to the sprung weight of the carried vehicle but with the springs fully compressed so that it becomes unsprung weight. This alone will excert considerable upward force on the attachments to the floor. Second best would be to tie down the unsprung weight on the assumption that the carried vehicle has dampers that will control the motion of the unsprung weight.

              I would definitely open up the underbelly and figure out how to get these attachment points anchored back to the RV frame (just my opinion). The idea of securing 1800 lbs with screws into plywood just doesn't sound like a good plan . Through bolts with fender washers would definitely be better . . . but how is the floor secured to the frame for "lift" loads as would happen during heavy braking. Some substantial cross beams under the floor and bolted to the frame rails would be my plan.

              Rob
              Cate & Rob
              (with Border Collies Molly & Angel and their kitty Gracie)
              2015 Reflection 303RLS
              2014 Ecoboost F150 with Heavy Duty Payload Package
              Bayham, Ontario, Canada

              Comment


              • #8
                Rob, If one could pull the sprung weight down to the track (compress the springs using the track as the anchor point) this will reduce the static upward loads. Yes the dynamic up stop can be much higher than static forces of just the weight of the unit. Was hoping you had a bit of insight for a real world number.
                Joseph
                Tow
                Vehicle: 2018 GMC K2500 Denali Diesel
                Coach: 303RLS Delivered March 5, 2021
                South of Houston Texas

                Comment


                • #9
                  Originally posted by Jlawles2 View Post
                  Rob, If one could pull the sprung weight down to the track (compress the springs using the track as the anchor point) this will reduce the static upward loads. Yes the dynamic up stop can be much higher than static forces of just the weight of the unit. Was hoping you had a bit of insight for a real world number.
                  Hi Joseph,

                  Agreed that if the track is used to "pull the tires up to the body" and compress the springs of the carried vehicle, this would not affect the fastening between track and floor. I had not thought of that . . . I was thinking of separate tie down attachments to the trailer floor and/or structure underneath. The fore/aft dynamic forces would be dependent on rate of acceleration or deceleration. This would be very difficult to calculate, but ultimately should have a safety factor designed in, for deceleration on impact to keep the carried vehicle in place during a potential collision of the TV and trailer.

                  Rob
                  Cate & Rob
                  (with Border Collies Molly & Angel and their kitty Gracie)
                  2015 Reflection 303RLS
                  2014 Ecoboost F150 with Heavy Duty Payload Package
                  Bayham, Ontario, Canada

                  Comment


                  • #10
                    Another consideration; Is it really 450 lbs per tire or is there more weight on the back tires? If so, is this weight at the rear of the trailer enough to cause towing problems, should the OP be trying to back his toy into the garage to get the weight closer to the axels?

                    As for strapping down the body instead of the tires, can the suspension be fully compressed or will there always be a little bounce? Will the straps and attachments be worked more (going from slack to tensioned) with the body strapped down than the tires? Would it be prudent to strap everything down, including X-straps for side sway?
                    John
                    2018 Momentum 395M
                    2018 Ram 3500 Dually
                    Every day is a Saturday, but with no lawn to mow.

                    Comment


                    • #11
                      WOW! And I thought I was over-analyzing. Decades ago in a former life I used to tie down military trucks and equipment in C-141's and C-5 aircraft during deployments, and we would tie down both sprung and unsprung weight. But this was done with a double digit number of very heavy duty chains and specially designed tensioners (no ratchet straps here!). Tying down an 1,800 lb SxS in an RV wasn't supposed to be nearly as complicated. Or so I thought...

                      Based on the advise of those more knowledgeable than I (thank you Cate&Rob and Jlawles2 ) I can see that my original plan would be insufficient. I will tie the track directly to at least the crossmembers and through bolt under the plywood. I'll know better how to accomplish this hopefully this weekend. I need to bring the RV home and do some exploring as our next planned trip is Memorial Day weekend and this needs t be done by then.

                      I'm not really sure how important it would be to "pull the tires up to the body" and compress the springs... The suspension on the SxS is pretty stiff as it is. It's not like it will be bouncing all over the place. The suspension I would think would bounce about as much as the TV and RV is. Again, if we're bouncing around that much where it's putting extra stress on the tie downs, I need to find a better route. Now there will be some fore and aft movement I'll have to control as unlike my Spyder, the SxS doesn't have a park brake, only a "Park"in the tranny. The movement is due to the tolerances in the park pawl. While chocks will be used, I'm thinking a couple of extra straps tied into the existing tie down rings both fore and aft would be adequate. Thoughts here?

                      Again, thanks for the critique! That's why I asked.

                      John
                      2018 Silverado LTZ 3500HD CC LB 4X4 DRW Duramax/Allison
                      2019 Momentum 381M w/Full Body Paint
                      2016 Can Am Spyder F3 Limited Special Series
                      2021 Can Am Maverick X3 Turbo RR
                      2016 Wrangler Hard Rock Unlimited
                      1997 Bayliner Capri 1950 affectionately named Skinnydipper
                      MSgt, USAF (Ret)

                      Comment


                      • #12
                        JBill9694 I just saw your post. Yes, the rear is heavier than the front and I had planned to back in to put more weight on the axles. The SxS replaced 2 quads that I would also back in and put as forward as possible while still having enough room to strap down. The 2 quads together weighed about 1,500 lbs and I ended up with 17% on the pin. Ideally I'd like more, but the RV towed well with no issues. I'm not sure how an extra 300 lbs will effect things, but I'm not expecting a drastic change in pin weight. Unless I can bottom out (or nearly bottom out) the suspension, there will be a little bounce. But with the tension required to get to that point I don't see an advantage. The objective here is to keep the SxS in position and prevent movement under foreseeable situations. In the event of a major collision (God forbid) would it really matter?

                        John
                        Last edited by Ready2Retire; 05-06-2021, 04:38 PM.
                        2018 Silverado LTZ 3500HD CC LB 4X4 DRW Duramax/Allison
                        2019 Momentum 381M w/Full Body Paint
                        2016 Can Am Spyder F3 Limited Special Series
                        2021 Can Am Maverick X3 Turbo RR
                        2016 Wrangler Hard Rock Unlimited
                        1997 Bayliner Capri 1950 affectionately named Skinnydipper
                        MSgt, USAF (Ret)

                        Comment


                        • #13
                          Originally posted by Ready2Retire View Post
                          My biggest concern is forward and back stress in case of a hard stop or I get rearended. ...... If there are bounce stresses, I need to get off that road and find another route, ... I need to crawl aroung underneath and se where everything lines up. Tying into cross members, even spaced apart, should be sufficient where backing plates would not be necessary. Trying not to over-engineer everything.John
                          If you are former load master on C5's then this ought to be a no brainer.... those guys were amazing.

                          Over engineer it. I would be far more concerned about emergency stops than getting rear ended. Not because of potential damage, but because of the likelihood of the event. "Tying into the cross members". That caught my attention. Forget the floor. Think about drilling 1" hole either side of the cross member and then using chains to run up to the tie downs on the buggy.

                          My experience with the American highway system doesn't leave me real impressed. While 90% of all our highways are excellent there are the other 10%. I-10 in Louisiana is notorious. I-40 in eastern Arkansas will rattle your bones. The roads around the Denver construction sites will cause a tension headache. And US highway 201 coming south out Quebec Canada to Skowhegan Maine will make you consider abandoning the truck and trailer and riding the off road vehicle. The problem is, you know it's a bad rough road until you start down it.

                          My point being the bounce can be a lot more than anticipated. On my SOB I had a motorcycle rack on the back. Had a 250 pound Yamaha XT250 on it. I used the bike suspension for a tensioner. I broke 3000lb straps. I finally put a 10,000 lb cargo strap around it after nearly dropping the bike onto the road. I cannot use open ended hooks for my tie downs, even on suspension loaded tie down. All of my hooks are closed loop and cannot come undone no matter how big the bounce. I am in the process of finding metal sheeting for my garage walls. The handle bars from my motorcycle have punched holes in them.

                          There is a lot going on back there.
                          2017 Momentum 376, 2019 Ford F450
                          2018 Yamaha XT250 Dual Sport Motorcycle
                          Kota the dog and KC the Kitty Cat

                          Comment


                          • #14
                            John Ready2Retire - thanks, for starting this thread and provoking some valued feedback. Carol and I are considering all types of GDRVs for our next RV and a toy hauler has been in the discussion since Andi Andi and Rudy Rudy tossed this idea for their next RV too.

                            I am curious if anyone has mounted a camera(s) in the toy hauler garage to watch a video of what is actually going on with the toy(s) and or other items and connection points/straps/etc. movement while on the road.....especially rough roads as Dallas d2reid shared. I do not recall seeing any videos.

                            I do recall folks sharing videos Brain bertschb of fiver hitch and pin movements and Jim MidwestCamper and others sharing videos of suspension movements.

                            Maybe someone on the forum here with a toy hauler can do this and share it with the group......could be quite eye opening or maybe boring.

                            Dan
                            Dan & Carol
                            2014 303RLS Reflection #185 (10/2013 build)
                            2012 Silverado LTZ Crew Duramax 2500HD - 2700/16K Pullrite Superglide

                            Comment


                            • #15
                              d2reid I can't take credit for being a loadmaster. Those guys were amazing. I was a mechanic mostly in what we called at the time "Rapid Deployable Units". When we deployed (I lost count of how many times during my career) the loadmasters would direct us on what to do and we did the grunt work. Then they would double-check our work. Just to clarify...

                              Sort of the reason I brought up aircraft loading was to make an analogy on the different dynamics between the extreme stresses of loads in flight vs the stresses of an RV going down a paved highway at 65 mph. Obviously there is no comparison. Having said that, being directly involved in tying things down in an aircraft has given me some insight into how to tie down stuff. After many miles of having tied down the 2 quads and the Spyder and never having either move, I just wanted some better perspective on tying down the SxS with the understanding that it is a larger vehicle.

                              Canyonlight I may need to do that, maybe I'll set up my go-pro back there on our next trip.

                              John
                              2018 Silverado LTZ 3500HD CC LB 4X4 DRW Duramax/Allison
                              2019 Momentum 381M w/Full Body Paint
                              2016 Can Am Spyder F3 Limited Special Series
                              2021 Can Am Maverick X3 Turbo RR
                              2016 Wrangler Hard Rock Unlimited
                              1997 Bayliner Capri 1950 affectionately named Skinnydipper
                              MSgt, USAF (Ret)

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