Gypsies

Hi Scott,

If you are happy with the way your F150 tows your Imagine, perhaps an even more capable F150 would be a consideration? The F150 comes in an HDPP (heavy duty payload package) that many Ford dealers don't seem to know about and almost never have in stock . . . but, it is right there in their sales brochure .

The best F150 powertrain for towing is the turbocharged Ecoboost V6. A much broader torque curve than the V8 and no loss of power at higher elevations because of the turbocharging. The HDPP comes with a stronger frame, stronger rear axle, 3.73 axle ratio, heavier springs, LT tires and a payload over 2500 lbs which is more-or-less equal to a diesel F250 payload.

I agree with your reservations about a diesel 250 as a daily driver (many will disagree with this ) . . . which is why we have an Ecoboost F150. If you went with a gasoline F250, you would have similar power to what you have today with the V8 F150, considering that you will have a bigger engine but will be hauling around about 800 lbs more truck all the time. You would have a payload around 3000 lbs . . . which would be nice . . . but might be more than required for an Imagine?

It is interesting how many accept that turbocharging a diesel is a "normal" requirement, but hesitate when turbocharging a gasoline engine (for all the same reasons) is suggested.

Just my "2 cents worth" . . . (shields up )

Rob

I graduated from a Chevy 6.0 gas to the 6.6 diesel. I did this for ease of towing without listening to engine scream. We also did this for longer trips. I have increased my fuel mileage by 3-4 miles per gallon , both towing and not towing. I use this truck as a daily driver , 17 miles one way to work ( sorry for using that bad word). I have had no problems with doing this for 75000 miles. We previously had a TT that weighed about 8500# and now have a fifth wheel that weighs about 10000#. I have also kept records of fuel and maintenance on both gas and diesel , this works out to about the same but you do pay a little more up front on the cost of the engine and transmission. We do mostly weekends close to home , about 50 to 100 miles , and a few trips a year around 400 miles. We have not got to go long distance YET. For my experience I would not go back to gas as long as we are doing what we have been. With that said if I was to down size and stay close to home I would go gas but would miss my diesel for sure.
If you think you will upsize some day go to the F350 , you will get better towing capacity as well as truck cargo capacity , not much more dollars for this.

Good luck on the decision and you will get plenty of input. Rob has given you some good advice above.

Brian

Gypsies
I moved your topic to the Technical Forum > Towing & Hitches channel.

There's no perfect answer IMO. "It depends" (as long as the truck is within it's tow specs hauling the trailer in question).

My truck is used 99% of the time for towing/hauling. I put a nearly 1,000lb Honda Goldwing in the bed and tow a heavy 315RLTS. With that combination I ended up with a F-350 dually, or DRW. (A single wheel, or SRW, could have worked--barely--but I'm in the "you can't have too much truck" corner.)

If you tow frequently, you'll want more truck than you need. If you'll tow in all kinds of weather, or on uneven terrain (as you mentioned) more truck is not a bad idea.

If you tow infrequently or over short distances, "just enough" is probably OK. If your truck is used to tow but more often is used as a daily driver, "just enough" is probably OK, too.

The gas vs diesel debate will never end. There are valid viewpoints on all sides. As a diesel owner, the costs associated with repairs are intimidating. It is one of the few items I've EVER bought an extended warranty on. I consider it "insurance" as I hope to never need it (the warranty) but if I do it will be a wallet-saver.

Finally, for an F-250 gas vs F-250 diesel comparison. The 7.3L gas has 475 lbs.-ft of torque. The 6.7 diesel 1,050! That is a difference you can most definitely feel when towing. It's not just a number. The downside, as I already mentioned, is the daunting maintenance and repair along with the weight penalty (about 500lbs subtracted from your payload due to it's extra weight over the gas engine).

Good luck--and you'll get a lot of opinions. We love to talk about trucks. And tires. Thank goodness there's no oil threads...

Howard

Whatever you decide, DO NOT spend the money on a 3/4-ton diesel. The diesel power train is heavier than the gas power train and eats into the available payload. If you're going diesel, get at least a 1-ton SRW. This goes for any of the three major brands. With a 3/4-ton diesel, you wouldn't have the payload to move up to a larger RV in the future without running into the payload ceiling.

Rob

Thank you everyone for your input, much appreciated!

The latest 3/4 ton gas trucks will exhibit payloads that are similar to payloads of one ton diesels of yesterday, depending on the configuration. Keep in mind while the diesels can exhibit 1000 lb-ft of torque, this is at wide open throttle so a particular application may not require this much torque. Especially for those that do not tow in the Rockies.

As Howard stated, it depends on the situation where each has there own merits. The diesel will cost more but will also have higher residual value over time. An HD 3/4 ton will be cheaper to purchase and depending on the load, may fit the requirements for towing.

I'm getting feedback on the new GM 3/4 ton HD gas truck with over 3K payload and 16-18 MPG running empty. So not bad.

Jim

As a reference point, my generation of Ecoboost has a broad WOT torque curve of 420 lb-ft. (Later versions hav more torque than this)
At a 16,000 lb combined weight, I have very seldom used WOT (perhaps on a short on-ramp) and never used WOT at highway speed on any grade through the Appalachians.
So, other than accelerating up long grades in the Rockies with a much heavier trailer than 10,000 lbs . . . 1000 lb-ft of torque is not necessary. (Although I can see how it would be nice to have )

Rob

There is a new option available for you. First Ford - and I think Chevy offer the new 10 speed auto trans (joint venture I think) Second Ford has a new 7.3 Gas engine (Godzilla) that would have plenty of power for you (get the 3:73 diff) There are threads on this new set up on several forums. Also use Fords build site and check out the payload options between the F250 and F350, Some are identical unless you do the the HD option. The 7.3 gas engine should give you more payload over the diesel. However the 7.3 is not turbocharged (yet) so the HDPP F150 with a turbo engine may perform better at altitude.

I'll play the devil's advocate here... WOT isn't the only important thing, IMHO. FCT (full closed throttle) going down those grades is very valuable to me. Unless the grade gets above 6% for more than a mile or so, I don't have to touch the brakes with a 15,000 lb. trailer in tow - and my 2012 PowerStroke has an earlier, less effective version of engine braking.

(Another) Rob

Here we go. LOL. It really boils down to the customers needs. I'm sure Fords 7.3L and GMs 6.6L options would both be good to use where both are straight forward pushrod engines with modern cam phasing. The Ford utilizes PFI which is old school for injection methods where GM uses modern DI for fuel injection (also higher CR) and is why GM can get similar power and torque out of a smaller displacement engine. My bet would be on the GM engine being more efficient to operate overall where the Ford has marginally more power and torque due to higher displacement. Its extremely unlikely we will see these engines in boosted versions for a HD truck application since they would burn ungodly amounts of fuel to cool components under high load. In the calibration world, to keep a boosted gas engines from burning to the ground a few methods are used. Add fuel to cool combustion temperatures, reduce torque (close the throttle) or with the previous two in combination of boost reduction. For non-boosted applications the first two methods are used. So in short a boosted gas engine under heavy load would not be able to sustain its peak advertised torque and power indefinitely without one of the three modifications to its operation. If manufactures introduced a lightly boosted HD engine just to overcome the torque lost at altitude, the gain in cost savings over the diesel would be lost so its very unlikely to happen in an HD truck as an OEM package.

Pumping losses on these engines would be greater than say a V6 so the downhill grade braking on the HD engines with their huge intake manifolds and with cam phasing would be better but unlikely to be as good as a diesel exhaust brake. But they may be good enough.

At some point we may see these engine in a boosted version for HP car applications where heat rejection could be managed far more efficiently.

Jim

Gasoline engines have always had decel engine braking by way of their closed throttle blades. Definitely not to the capability of a diesel with an exhaust brake . . . but, with modern engine control systems . . . better than you might think. Even my little Ecoboost can control most of a five mile 6% downgrade (Monteagle) with only occasional brief brake apply. I do have disc brakes on the trailer to help out .

Rob

Rob,

This is due to the modern engines use of cam phasing and to some extent older engines that use an EGR valve. Cams on decel can be timed to produce minimum overlap such as a DOHC engine like your ecoboost where pumping losses will increase and will help with downhill grades (more vacuum). This is an increase in a term referred to as PMEP (pumping mean effective pressure). This same term is increased in diesels but from different functions. One creates additional vacuum and the other increases back pressure. With the single cam engines, cam timing can help but its a compromise since these engines use a single cam in block design.

Many folks that may have owned the older GM & Ford big blocks may have experienced or heard folks state that they get the same fuel economy whether the truck is loaded or not. This is due to the lack of cam phasing where at light engine loads, manifold vacuum eats up efficiency where when loaded, the engine manifold is unthrottled where PMEP is reduced. So its a balancing game.

Jim

Actually, most diesels reach max torque at low RPM's. For example, the 2020 Ford 6.7 Powerstroke reaches it's peak of 1,050lb-ft at 1,800rpm.

Brian,

The gas engine typically cannot compete with the diesel of the same displacement unless its boosted but advertised torque and power is measured and calculated at WOT for all engines. So a person towing a reflection with his ecoboost does not need 1050 lb-ft to get the job done. The gas engine can increase torque at lower RPMs as well with boost, stroke and displacement as in the new HD gas engines where they lack the efficiency of higher compression and the increased energy in diesel fuel but the reduced cost, the efficiency of running empty, cost of fuel, maintenance are all factors in making a purchase. Now that does not mean folks would not like more torque as torque is just plain fun, but it may not be needed

Jim