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2020 Reflection 297- Can I pull it with a half ton?

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  • #46
    Originally posted by Jlawles2 View Post
    TXBuckeye and MidwestCamper Brett and Jim, when I had my 06 3/4 ton GM Diesel, the tank felt the size of a thimble. I think it was 26 gallons and light came on about 18 gallons used. I added a https://www.walmart.com/ip/Moeller-T...1620/161618390 into my UWS Deep tool box. Couple of bulkhead fittings, boat primer bulb and some other parts let me start gravity feeding (probably illegal everywhere) the tank. Unloaded I could get 300 miles before the fuel gauge would think about registering fuel used (at 100 miles it went to E and did not come back up till key cycle or it registered a change). Loaded I could get about 150-200 miles before it started registering change.

    I think this is the box I ran (its on its 3rd truck). https://www.uwsta.com/part/TBSD-69 6.5' bed or longer otherwise it hits the wheel wells.
    The GM lights come on at 50 miles to empty. So with towing it would calculate that out where the stops could be frequent depending on mileage. I see many folks with diesels with extra tanks in the bed. I doubt there is purge control on a diesel but on gas this would cause issues and saturate the purge canister.

    Jim
    Last edited by MidwestCamper; 04-07-2021, 07:18 PM.
    2017 Imagine 2600RB
    2015 GMC Sierra 4x4

    Comment


    • #47
      Marco
      Hi Marco,

      A couple of additional comments (if I may) WRT recent discussion.
      If you are considering a Ford half ton, don't worry about the V6 vs V8 thing. The turbocharged Ecoboost has a lot more low end torque (better for towing) than any normally aspirated V8. The attached curves are a little out of date (the newer Ecoboost has even more torque) but will give you an approximation.
      My F150 Crew Cab has a 35 gallon fuel tank. At 9 to 10 mpg towing, this equates to over 300 miles or more than 5 hours of driving. That's lots before a stop is required .

      Rob

      Click image for larger version

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      Cate & Rob
      (with Border Collies Molly & Angel and their kitty Gracie)
      2015 Reflection 303RLS
      2014 Ecoboost F150 with Heavy Duty Payload Package
      Bayham, Ontario, Canada

      Comment


      • #48
        Originally posted by MidwestCamper View Post

        The GM lights come on at 50 miles to empty. So with towing it would calculate that out where the stops could be frequent depending on mileage. I see many folks with diesels with extra tanks in the bed. I doubt there is purge control on a diesel but on gas this would cause issues and saturate the purge canister.

        Jim
        Jim,

        I never mattered if I was pulling the camper or just empty, every time the light came on, it was 18 gallons. I believe the fuel gauge was off as that seems to be a common complaint in the 06 model year truck.
        Tow Vehicle: 2018 GMC K2500 Denali Diesel
        Coach: 303RLS Delivered March 5, 2021

        Comment


        • #49
          Originally posted by Cate&Rob View Post
          Marco
          Hi Marco,

          A couple of additional comments (if I may) WRT recent discussion.
          If you are considering a Ford half ton, don't worry about the V6 vs V8 thing. The turbocharged Ecoboost has a lot more low end torque (better for towing) than any normally aspirated V8. The attached curves are a little out of date (the newer Ecoboost has even more torque) but will give you an approximation.
          My F150 Crew Cab has a 35 gallon fuel tank. At 9 to 10 mpg towing, this equates to over 300 miles or more than 5 hours of driving. That's lots before a stop is required .

          Rob

          Click image for larger version  Name:	image1.jpeg Views:	0 Size:	131.8 KB ID:	49544
          Rob,

          Is there a SAE Certified curve available for the Ecoboost? I've seen a great deal of massaging or improper comparisons used for advertising where the SAE curves will show what was certified on the dynamometer at the manufacturer with an SAE witness being present. Boosted gas engines provide increased airflow where airflow is proportional to torque and why they can produce higher specific output compared to a larger NA engine. However they are not perfect where the new Industrial grade HD engines offer simplicity with cam in block (a single short timing chain), no AFM, and do not require premium fuel for towing. So engine choice becomes a matter of preference and why there are so many options out there.

          Jim
          2017 Imagine 2600RB
          2015 GMC Sierra 4x4

          Comment


          • #50
            Marco Cate&Rob MidwestCamper I know this is getting a little off the original topic of "can I tow it with my......" however I do have a couple of comments. First I agree that with that large of trailer a 250, 2500 etc. would probably be best for the OP. As for the Ecoboost 3.5, the torque curve for our 2020 starts being noticeable at around 1,700 rpm, really starts pulling around 2,000 and peaks at around 2,400 with 470 lb. of torque with 375 horse power at a much higher rpm. The HP will probably never be used as it is at an rpm range that we have yet to see while towing. The manual does state that premium fuel may be used for heavy loads and high temps. and elevations, which we have lots of with the t.t., our general elevations and high summer temps out here in the west. My experience is that premium fuel does nothing for performance, lowers fuel economy and requires somewhat higher rpms while towing and sets off a high frequency buzz in the steering wheel and gas peddle at around 2,100 rpm which happens to be the vehicles preferred towing rpm, think very annoying. The 3.5 Ecoboost is plenty of engine for towing though it is complex and there is no doubt that reliable, simple old school V-8s are still great power systems.

            ​​​​​​​Dave
            flyfshrockies, 2021 imagine 2600RB, Ford F-150, XLT supper crew 3.5 eco boost with max tow. Dave and Toni (and the awesome Aussie Bayley, he's the social one)

            Comment


            • #51
              Originally posted by flyfshrockies View Post
              Marco Cate&Rob MidwestCamper I know this is getting a little off the original topic of "can I tow it with my......" however I do have a couple of comments. First I agree that with that large of trailer a 250, 2500 etc. would probably be best for the OP. As for the Ecoboost 3.5, the torque curve for our 2020 starts being noticeable at around 1,700 rpm, really starts pulling around 2,000 and peaks at around 2,400 with 470 lb. of torque with 375 horse power at a much higher rpm. The HP will probably never be used as it is at an rpm range that we have yet to see while towing. The manual does state that premium fuel may be used for heavy loads and high temps. and elevations, which we have lots of with the t.t., our general elevations and high summer temps out here in the west. My experience is that premium fuel does nothing for performance, lowers fuel economy and requires somewhat higher rpms while towing and sets off a high frequency buzz in the steering wheel and gas peddle at around 2,100 rpm which happens to be the vehicles preferred towing rpm, think very annoying. The 3.5 Ecoboost is plenty of engine for towing though it is complex and there is no doubt that reliable, simple old school V-8s are still great power systems.

              ​​​​​​​Dave
              Dave,

              All good points and the boosted applications really shine at altitude. However premium fuel does make a difference (as long as its calibrated to accept it) where you can bet premium was used by Ford to cert this engine. Premium fuel will allow for increased spark advance which is possible since the knock limit is higher with premium. So for peak torque premium would be needed. Keep in mind this has to be learned in so depending on how fast Fords knock algorithm learns in and applies the additional spark advance, you may not feel it right away.
              The other important factor while pulling hard on grades with regular fuel on a premium fuel intended engine....you will be generating additional heat since retarded spark to burn regular fuel will put heat right where you do not want it....in the exhaust valves, turbos and the catalyst. To overcome this heat, manufacturers will pull torque (throttle back) and/or add fuel since additional fuel cools the combustion process.

              Also premium fuel on a premium calibrated engine will generally exhibit higher fuel economy. This is due to the slower burn rate and higher knock limit of premium with the additional spark advance will put the engine closer to MBT. Also boosted engines tend to have lower compression ratios and are less knock limited in the lighter throttle regions so if the driver remains in part throttle operation (non towing, flat land) and out of boost, the increased fuel economy benefit of premium may not be noticed.

              Jim
              Last edited by MidwestCamper; 04-08-2021, 10:23 AM.
              2017 Imagine 2600RB
              2015 GMC Sierra 4x4

              Comment


              • #52
                MidwestCamper Jim, thanks for that bit of education and it is appreciated, I always like to know more. It seems, at least with our ford, that the learning curve for the computer is extended, maybe to 500 miles or so. I might try the premium again at low elevations should I be in that situation over a prolonged period. For the generally high elevations we operate in the regular seems to provide ample buffer against knock issues and I have yet to need full throttle operation to climb hills or push into the wind, which I hope is keeping EGT well below the danger zone, though the Columbia River Gorge "breeze" can be a challenge. It would be fun to have a Turbine Inlet Temp. gauge or E.G.T. to play with. I think I will see if my "Scan Gauge" can pull some info from the computer on temps in the exhaust stream. According to that gauge the waste gates open at about 15 inches of boost at full throttle. Other times during normal towing operations it runs nearly as a turbo normalizer, meaning it seems to provide sea level HP/MP plus elevation at most times. At 4,000 it seems to provide about 4 inches of boost under moderate loads. Each inch of additional boost above cruise seems to increase fuel consumption 15% to 20 %.

                Again thanks for the info

                Dave
                flyfshrockies, 2021 imagine 2600RB, Ford F-150, XLT supper crew 3.5 eco boost with max tow. Dave and Toni (and the awesome Aussie Bayley, he's the social one)

                Comment


                • #53
                  Originally posted by flyfshrockies View Post
                  MidwestCamper Jim, thanks for that bit of education and it is appreciated, I always like to know more. It seems, at least with our ford, that the learning curve for the computer is extended, maybe to 500 miles or so. I might try the premium again at low elevations should I be in that situation over a prolonged period. For the generally high elevations we operate in the regular seems to provide ample buffer against knock issues and I have yet to need full throttle operation to climb hills or push into the wind, which I hope is keeping EGT well below the danger zone, though the Columbia River Gorge "breeze" can be a challenge. It would be fun to have a Turbine Inlet Temp. gauge or E.G.T. to play with. I think I will see if my "Scan Gauge" can pull some info from the computer on temps in the exhaust stream. According to that gauge the waste gates open at about 15 inches of boost at full throttle. Other times during normal towing operations it runs nearly as a turbo normalizer, meaning it seems to provide sea level HP/MP plus elevation at most times. At 4,000 it seems to provide about 4 inches of boost under moderate loads. Each inch of additional boost above cruise seems to increase fuel consumption 15% to 20 %.

                  Again thanks for the info

                  Dave
                  Dave,

                  I could talk engines forever. The system should not take too long to learn in where I would switch over to premium a day or so in advance. There are many ways to modify this where some manufacturers will use knock activity, or simply a re-fueling event, with some delays. You will never see increased EGT's since the calibrations will account for that. What you can look for to see if fuel is being added for component protection is air/fuel ratio. Also the CAN information is fun to play with but it is highly filtered. Boost is fun and it can lead to a heavy foot and increased fuel consumption. Most of the time, its worth it.

                  Jim
                  2017 Imagine 2600RB
                  2015 GMC Sierra 4x4

                  Comment


                  • #54
                    MidwestCamper Yeah, the DW looks at me funny sometimes and says " is that REALLY necessary"!? The auto increase/auto rich in F/A ratio is what I am relying on for short bursts of high throttle operation to control EGT and T.I.T., it may be that I am overly optimistic in that view? We used to operate LOP in turbo charged aircraft up to 75% power to control turbine inlet temps and got great service out of them, I know auto engines only do that at cruise. Also A/C engines are designed to be run hard for the most part to keep those rings sealed up tight not so much an auto engine. Guess I'm getting a little far afield huh?

                    Dave
                    flyfshrockies, 2021 imagine 2600RB, Ford F-150, XLT supper crew 3.5 eco boost with max tow. Dave and Toni (and the awesome Aussie Bayley, he's the social one)

                    Comment


                    • #55
                      Originally posted by flyfshrockies View Post
                      MidwestCamper Yeah, the DW looks at me funny sometimes and says " is that REALLY necessary"!? The auto increase/auto rich in F/A ratio is what I am relying on for short bursts of high throttle operation to control EGT and T.I.T., it may be that I am overly optimistic in that view? We used to operate LOP in turbo charged aircraft up to 75% power to control turbine inlet temps and got great service out of them, I know auto engines only do that at cruise. Also A/C engines are designed to be run hard for the most part to keep those rings sealed up tight not so much an auto engine. Guess I'm getting a little far afield huh?

                      Dave
                      No not really. The aircraft engine would be similar to todays HD engines. Send me a PM and we can c hat over engines all you want. Real quick before we get too far off topic, we look heavily at friction in auto engines so piston rings are indeed becoming thin.

                      Jim
                      2017 Imagine 2600RB
                      2015 GMC Sierra 4x4

                      Comment


                      • #56
                        MidwestCamper flyfshrockies
                        Interesting engine discussion! ("sort of" related to the topic title )

                        My experience is that premium fuel definitely makes a difference to the Ecoboost engine when towing a heavy trailer . . . and to some extent with engine durability. Ecoboost engines are known to eat spark plugs if worked hard on regular fuel. When towing the 5th wheel, I have had occasion to have to fill up with regular fuel when premium was not available. I could definitely feel a reduction in engine power and see an increase in fuel consumption for that next leg of the trip. Also a whisper of engine knock (on the regular fuel) but you have to be listening carefully on moderate to heavy accels because the knock sensor cal quickly pulls back spark advance.

                        The cost of premium fuel is definitely a factor in getting this much torque and horsepower out of such a small engine. For around town driving, you can get by with regular fuel although in cold weather (and with reduced miles due to COVID restrictions) I have been keeping the tank full of premium to avoid condensation and the ethanol that is added to all regular grade fuel (in Canada).

                        Rob
                        Cate & Rob
                        (with Border Collies Molly & Angel and their kitty Gracie)
                        2015 Reflection 303RLS
                        2014 Ecoboost F150 with Heavy Duty Payload Package
                        Bayham, Ontario, Canada

                        Comment


                        • #57
                          Originally posted by Cate&Rob View Post
                          MidwestCamper flyfshrockies
                          Interesting engine discussion! ("sort of" related to the topic title )

                          My experience is that premium fuel definitely makes a difference to the Ecoboost engine when towing a heavy trailer . . . and to some extent with engine durability. Ecoboost engines are known to eat spark plugs if worked hard on regular fuel. When towing the 5th wheel, I have had occasion to have to fill up with regular fuel when premium was not available. I could definitely feel a reduction in engine power and see an increase in fuel consumption for that next leg of the trip. Also a whisper of engine knock (on the regular fuel) but you have to be listening carefully on moderate to heavy accels because the knock sensor cal quickly pulls back spark advance.

                          The cost of premium fuel is definitely a factor in getting this much torque and horsepower out of such a small engine. For around town driving, you can get by with regular fuel although in cold weather (and with reduced miles due to COVID restrictions) I have been keeping the tank full of premium to avoid condensation and the ethanol that is added to all regular grade fuel (in Canada).

                          Rob
                          Rob,

                          Nice confirmation where this is how this engine should perform. Light knock will also not harm the engine.
                          Premium fuel in Canada is E0? I was not aware of that.
                          All gasoline in the states is E10 with the exception of recreation fuel which is unleaded E0. There is talk of moving to E15 which is a bad idea. Not a good idea to burn our food IMO.

                          Jim
                          2017 Imagine 2600RB
                          2015 GMC Sierra 4x4

                          Comment


                          • #58
                            Cate&Rob MidwestCamper O.K. Since Rob has extensive experience with the eco-boost I will try the premium fuel next time around. That little buzz in the pedal and wheel might be too much for me though. There is ample performance even with the regular fuel so was not thinking it would be needed. I do not want to damage the power system if I can avoid it, a few dollars for a fuel upgrade are not an issue. I have heard of the reduced plug life and would probably replace them at around 60K anyway. We can get the e-0 premium fuel here in MT. but it is very expensive so won't even try that. I agree, why burn the corn when you can eat it. Thanks for the thoughts.

                            Dave
                            flyfshrockies, 2021 imagine 2600RB, Ford F-150, XLT supper crew 3.5 eco boost with max tow. Dave and Toni (and the awesome Aussie Bayley, he's the social one)

                            Comment


                            • #59
                              flyfshrockies
                              Hi Dave,

                              The "buzz" in the pedal & wheel at towing RPM would be disconcerting. I have never noticed that . . . and I am quite sensitive to minor drivability issues like this. I tow with 6th gear locked out so that I am at about 2100 RPM at 60 MPH. This is the "sweet spot" for the engine. Just into the boosted RPM range. It takes a noticeable grade to even get the transmission to downshift. I do change the spark plugs every 60K. I have not noticed misfire before changing them but idle quality improves noticeably with new plugs. When you change plugs, you will need new boots (not expensive) . . . they seem to bond themselves to the plugs.

                              Rob
                              Cate & Rob
                              (with Border Collies Molly & Angel and their kitty Gracie)
                              2015 Reflection 303RLS
                              2014 Ecoboost F150 with Heavy Duty Payload Package
                              Bayham, Ontario, Canada

                              Comment


                              • #60
                                Originally posted by MidwestCamper View Post

                                Rob,

                                Nice confirmation where this is how this engine should perform. Light knock will also not harm the engine.
                                Premium fuel in Canada is E0? I was not aware of that.
                                All gasoline in the states is E10 with the exception of recreation fuel which is unleaded E0. There is talk of moving to E15 which is a bad idea. Not a good idea to burn our food IMO.

                                Jim
                                Some brands of fuel in Canada get around the "all fuel must have Ethanol" rule by increasing the regular fuel to E15, mid grade is E10 and premium is E0. I guess they sell the same amount of ethanol this way. Don't get me started on using ethanol for fuel . It takes more energy to create a gallon of ethanol fuel than you can recover by burning it.

                                Rob
                                Cate & Rob
                                (with Border Collies Molly & Angel and their kitty Gracie)
                                2015 Reflection 303RLS
                                2014 Ecoboost F150 with Heavy Duty Payload Package
                                Bayham, Ontario, Canada

                                Comment

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