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  • Towing Newbie - I Have Questions!

    Towing newbie here would value feedback/opinions from this group on towing / pin weight on our new 320G TH after first trip of approx 1,000 miles. We have the 8,000 lb axel option so GVWR is 18,000. UVW: 13,342. CAT scale revealed camping-ready trailer weight of 15,120, 2500 lb / 16.5% pin weight w/ ~600 lb motorcycle in back, about 24 gallons / 150 lbs gas in back 30 gallon tank, zero fresh water and empty gray and black water tanks. Towed ok with Ram 3500 Laramie 4 x 4 diesel SRW short bed w/ Andersen Ultimate hitch w/ ball in lowest position and truck set at alternate trailer height, which is 1” lower. However, I did notice some very slight “fishtailing” when observing the very back of the rig in the mirrors at 65 MPH on the Interstate. Is this normal? I’ve never towed anything this long or heavy. Would more pin weight make it more stable? I assume yes. If I add water to the fresh tank behind the axles for boondocking my pin weight will drop. I could add water weight to the black and/or gray water tank in front of the axles to offset the fresh water weight weight, but I would prefer not to do that. We want to upgrade the king mattress so that will add some weight up front. Maybe a water bed like WileyKid suggests! I could add a 2nd battery in the generator compartment. I was even thinking I could add about 100 lbs of water weight in (2) 6 gallon jugs and put them under the bed up front. Any and all opinions welcome! Thank you.
    Last edited by howson; 06-06-2021, 08:55 PM.
    Chuck & Vicki
    2021 Momentum 320G w/ 8,000 lb axles & disc brakes
    VIN: 573FM3822M1119697
    2020 Ram Laramie 3500 w/ Cummins 6.7L turbo diesel, 4 x 4, SRW, short bed, air suspension, Andersen Ultimate Hitch

  • #2
    I am out on my second trip with my new 320G (with the 8K lb axles). It looks like we have a very similar setup, although I am using a Reese Sidewinder, with a Reese 5th wheel hitch. I try to keep about 10 gallons of water in the fresh tank for the bathroom, although I found out on the first trip, and it has been talked about here, the water siphoned out during the trip. On the first trip, I noticed the slight fishtailing when I changed lanes at times. This second trip, it did it for the first 50 miles or so, then stopped and tracked straight as an arrow the rest of the trip. The changes I made were that I added about 10 gallons to the black tank, and grey tank. I have a very light pin weight like you, and am sure that is the issue. I have no idea what changed during the second trip to stop the slight fishtailing, as I put a shutoff valve on the vent for the fresh water tank, and it has not siphoned.

    The factory pin weight on mine was 2510 lbs, trailer weight of 13,078 lbs. It does have the Onan gen. On my first trip, I hit the CAT scale, and with the Reese Sidewinder (a good 150 lbs heavier), all my stuff including a 470 lb motorcycle, currently about 8 gallons of gas, ready for traveling, CAT scale of the pin weight was 2520 lbs, weight of the trailer was 14,460 lbs. This was without water (siphoned), or anything in the black/grey tank. When I head home in a couple of days, I will fill my grey tank with about 20 gallons of water, and see how that works. I am not going to fill my black tank, as I have no problem emptying my grey tank at home that has been flushed prior to putting water in it. Black tank, not so much.

    End result looks like somehow getting more weight up forward.
    Last edited by Wileykid; 06-07-2021, 07:41 AM.
    2021 GD Momentum 320G 8K Axle
    2023 Chevy 3500HD LTZ SB CC 4x4 Dmax

    Comment


    • #3
      Sounds like both of you need to tell the DW that she can take more stuff with her, as long as it is packed in front of the axels (sorry ladies, I couldn't resist). I'm fortunate not to have this problem so no real advice to give. IMO water is not only heavy it is also bulky and takes up a lot of valuable space. I would probably be thinking along the lines of steel weights in the forward storage compartment. Not much use when you get where your going but take up a lot less space than water, and you don't have to worry about spills or leaks.
      John
      2018 Momentum 395M
      2018 Ram 3500 Dually
      Every day is a Saturday, but with no lawn to mow.

      Comment


      • #4
        Question of anyone who knows, is the black tank forward of the grey tank, or the opposite?
        2021 GD Momentum 320G 8K Axle
        2023 Chevy 3500HD LTZ SB CC 4x4 Dmax

        Comment


        • #5
          Originally posted by Wileykid View Post
          Question of anyone who knows, is the black tank forward of the grey tank, or the opposite?
          The forward waste tanks should be side-by-side with the black tank on the right (curb) side and the grey tank on the left (street) side.

          Rob
          Cate & Rob
          (with Border Collies Molly & Angel + Kitties Hazel & Elsie)
          2015 Reflection 303RLS
          2022 F350 Diesel CC SB SRW Lariat
          Bayham, Ontario, Canada

          Comment


          • #6
            Towed the trailer home from camping yesterday, about 500 miles. I had about 10-15 gallons in the grey tank (clean water), and did not see much of any sway. The most I would see at times was around 2". What water I had in the fresh tank was gone, as I forgot to close the valve I have on the vent (new reminder label now on task list). Next trip, I am going to try and have about 20 gallons in the grey tank, it is hard to judge the amount using the sink faucet. I will use a hose (with a gallon counter) to the sink for a faster fill the next time.
            2021 GD Momentum 320G 8K Axle
            2023 Chevy 3500HD LTZ SB CC 4x4 Dmax

            Comment


            • #7
              Do the Ram 3500's have a rear sway bar?
              Allen

              2021 Momentum 21G

              Comment


              • #8
                No, I don't recall seeing it on mine. Not sure on the ones with the air suspension.
                2021 GD Momentum 320G 8K Axle
                2023 Chevy 3500HD LTZ SB CC 4x4 Dmax

                Comment


                • #9
                  Originally posted by Wileykid View Post
                  No, I don't recall seeing it on mine. Not sure on the ones with the air suspension.
                  I do not see a sway bar on our Ram 3500 w/ air suspension.
                  Chuck & Vicki
                  2021 Momentum 320G w/ 8,000 lb axles & disc brakes
                  VIN: 573FM3822M1119697
                  2020 Ram Laramie 3500 w/ Cummins 6.7L turbo diesel, 4 x 4, SRW, short bed, air suspension, Andersen Ultimate Hitch

                  Comment


                  • #10
                    I find my 320 tows significantly better when it's weighed down to max axle capacity (water tanks full, heavy load in garage). I just upgraded my 2500 Megacab to a '21 3500 8' bed. I haven't towed yet though. My 3500 with air does not have sway bars either.
                    2020 GD 320G
                    2021 Ram 3500 H.O. SRW.

                    Comment


                    • #11


                      Originally posted by Villager View Post
                      Towing newbie here would value feedback/opinions from this group on towing / pin weight on our new 320G TH after first trip of approx 1,000 miles. We have the 8,000 lb axel option so GVWR is 18,000. UVW: 13,342. CAT scale revealed camping-ready trailer weight of 15,120, 2500 lb / 16.5% pin weight w/ ~600 lb motorcycle in back, about 24 gallons / 150 lbs gas in back 30 gallon tank, zero fresh water and empty gray and black water tanks. Towed ok with Ram 3500 Laramie 4 x 4 diesel SRW short bed w/ Andersen Ultimate hitch w/ ball in lowest position and truck set at alternate trailer height, which is 1” lower. However, I did notice some very slight “fishtailing” when observing the very back of the rig in the mirrors at 65 MPH on the Interstate. Is this normal? I’ve never towed anything this long or heavy. Would more pin weight make it more stable? I assume yes. If I add water to the fresh tank behind the axles for boondocking my pin weight will drop. I could add water weight to the black and/or gray water tank in front of the axles to offset the fresh water weight weight, but I would prefer not to do that. We want to upgrade the king mattress so that will add some weight up front. Maybe a water bed like WileyKid suggests! I could add a 2nd battery in the generator compartment. I was even thinking I could add about 100 lbs of water weight in (2) 6 gallon jugs and put them under the bed up front. Any and all opinions welcome! Thank you.
                      Villager

                      Ok, I'm going to take a stab at something here that I think could be messing with ya. I think your weight calculations are incorrect. It's not your fault though. Your math is fine. I don't believe the formulas on the given CAT Scale weight worksheet that you posted are correct.

                      Disclaimer: I'm not going to claim 100% that I'm correct on this, but there is a math problem that I saw right away. Right now your numbers don't add up correctly, but when I make "my" correction and double check the numbers, everything comes out right. I'll show you:

                      I'm referencing the picture of your CAT worksheet.

                      The formula that they give for Kingpin weight is "B - E = K," which is rear axle of your truck loaded minus rear axle of your truck unloaded.

                      As you calculated, that would be 5,980 - 3,480 = 2,500. At first thought, that would seem as though it should be correct, particularly to towers at the earlier levels of knowledge and experience, but I don't think it is. It actually is causing a 200 lbs error because that formula (I don't believe) isn't correct.

                      In fact that formula that I have always seen to calculate pin weight or tongue weight is the ENTIRE weight of the truck loaded minus the ENTIRE weight of the truck unloaded. That formula for "Kingpin:" should thus read, "(A+B) - (D+E) = K". Or you could also write it as "(A+B) - Y = K," which would be the same thing since we know "Y" is the weight of the unloaded truck.

                      The reason this matters is because the weight changes by 200 lbs. In fact your pin weight is reduced from 2,500 lbs to 2,300 lbs.

                      Hopefully you've followed me this far, because I can PROVE this now by double checking our math. Here's how:

                      I know how much your entire trailer weighs. I know that your trailer weight will weigh the total of the entire rig minus the unloaded truck weight. That would be "Z - Y = T." The numbers are 23,540 - 8620 = 14,920 lbs. Your truck, by itself, weighs 8,620, and your trailer by itself weighs 14,920, which gives your entire rig a weight of 23,540 (letter Z).

                      But wait a minute......what happened? The CAT worksheet says that your trailer (line "T") weighs 15,120. Damn, there's a 200 lbs error in there somewhere.

                      That 200 lbs error is because the formula that they use to calculate your trailer weight "K + C" is using an incorrect value for "K" (your kingpin weight). If you use MY calculation for kingpin weight (2,300 lbs instead of 2,500 lbs) and you add that to your trailer axle weight (letter C) then you arrive at the correct trailer weight of 14,920. (2,300 + 12,620 = 14,920).

                      Again, we KNOW 14,920 is the actual correct trailer weight (instead of 15,120) because we simply subtract total rig weight from unloaded truck weight (Z - Y).


                      OK....why does all this matter? Well since we're using incorrect numbers, your pin weight percentage is not correct. Instead of being 2,500 divided by 15,120 = 16.53%, your math SHOULD BE:

                      2,300 / 14,920 = 15.41%

                      Your pin weight is not 16.5%, it's actually 15.4%.

                      Is that 1.1% a big difference? I don't know. That's what you have to experiment with your weight distribution and figure out! Though, from my research, a lot of experienced towers believe that 1.1% would make a big difference.

                      Even the CAT scale worksheet (which I already have no faith in) says the pin weight should be between 17% and 25%. I think there's a LOT bigger jump from 15.4% to 17% than there is from 16.5% to 17%. In other words, I don't think that difference is "linear."

                      Apparently, according to the internet brain trust, that 20% pin weight is the "magic number," and the further you get away from that then more trouble you're likely to have. And apparently it's some sort of pseudo-logarithmic function because it seems that there is a bigger difference, at least in people's minds, between 15 to 16 than there is between 16 to 17, or 17 to 18, or 18 to 19, or 19 to 20.

                      I've never pulled a 5th wheel. I grew up pulling heavy gooseneck trailers and also have lots of experience with travel trailers and other "bumper pull" trailers. But, our first 5th wheel is on order now, and my hours and hours and hours of research into this subject (and a lot of others) has shown me that there are a LOT of people who claim, anecdotally, that when you start getting down into that 15% pin weight range, then the trailer can really start to act "squirrelly."

                      What does "squirrelly" mean? I don't know. The forum posts I've read say that there is a lot more "bouncing" around on the hitch, more "chucking," and the trailer, being more tail-heavy, is more prone to "sway" and whatnot when you get in that 15% area.

                      Again, is that true? I don' know, but that's the sort of things I've read, seemingly quite a bit.



                      Anyway, take that for what its worth. The bottom line is that people tend to think the further you get from 20% and the closer you get to 15% the trailer starts getting "goofy."

                      So do some experimentation with your loading, and with the CORRECT weight calculations, and see how things go. It would be interesting to hear follow up from you afterwards to see what you think.

                      Peace,

                      Ryan
                      Last edited by Ryan; 09-20-2021, 04:09 AM.
                      2020 Chevy 3500HD DRW High Country 4x4, 6.6L Duramax
                      2022 Solitude 390RK-R
                      MORryde Independent Suspension
                      B&W 20k Companion Hitch
                      Transfer Flow 50 Gal Auxiliary Fuel Tank

                      Comment


                      • #12
                        Ryan Ryan, I did not look at the calculator, but from reading your description you are most likely correct, I would second check the location of the King Pin to rear axle. On my autoslider they had it off by 1 hole on the feet which moved the king pin back about 1-1/2" that resulted in lifting of the front axle, similar to a bumper pull. Once I corrected the small error, it helped keep that weight back on the front axle. I need to re-weight the combination to see how much it changed. This should help me with the rear axle being close to capacity.

                        I found that most people do not know how to correctly use a lower weight when loaded to get the proper kingpin weight. You have captured it.
                        Joseph
                        Tow
                        Vehicle: 2024 GMC K3500 Denali Ultimate Diesel
                        Coach: 303RLS Delivered March 5, 2021
                        South of Houston Texas

                        Comment


                        • #13
                          Ryan, thanks for the post, although I am not the OP, that was an informative post for everyone. I did my math the same as you showed originally, so my numbers are good. I have been putting 20 gallons of water in my grey tank, and it has improved the towing, and need to hit the CAT scale to see what the new numbers are. Bummer is that with the grey tank on the drivers side, and the kitchen on that side also, that left side of the trailer is really adding up.

                          It seems the 320G is geared for people that use toy haulers as a TT, and not for carrying toys.
                          2021 GD Momentum 320G 8K Axle
                          2023 Chevy 3500HD LTZ SB CC 4x4 Dmax

                          Comment


                          • #14
                            Originally posted by Ryan View Post



                            Villager

                            Ok, I'm going to take a stab at something here that I think could be messing with ya. I think your weight calculations are incorrect. It's not your fault though. Your math is fine. I don't believe the formulas on the given CAT Scale weight worksheet that you posted are correct.

                            Disclaimer: I'm not going to claim 100% that I'm correct on this, but there is a math problem that I saw right away. Right now your numbers don't add up correctly, but when I make "my" correction and double check the numbers, everything comes out right. I'll show you:

                            I'm referencing the picture of your CAT worksheet.

                            The formula that they give for Kingpin weight is "B - E = K," which is rear axle of your truck loaded minus rear axle of your truck unloaded.

                            As you calculated, that would be 5,980 - 3,480 = 2,500. At first thought, that would seem as though it should be correct, particularly to towers at the earlier levels of knowledge and experience, but I don't think it is. It actually is causing a 200 lbs error because that formula (I don't believe) is correct.

                            In fact that formula that I have always seen to calculate pin weight or tongue weight is the ENTIRE weight of the truck loaded minus the ENTIRE weight of the truck unloaded. That formula for "Kingpin:" should thus read, "(A+B) - (D+E) = K". Or you could also write it as "(A+B) - Y = K," which would be the same thing since we know "Y" is the weight of the unloaded truck.

                            The reason this matters is because the weight changes by 200 lbs. In fact your pin weight is reduced from 2,500 lbs to 2,300 lbs.

                            Hopefully you've followed me this far, because I can PROVE this now by double checking our math. Here's how:

                            I know how much your entire trailer weighs. I know that your trailer weight will weigh the total of the entire rig minus the unloaded truck weight. That would be "Z - Y = T." The numbers are 23,540 - 8620 = 14,920 lbs. Your truck, by itself, weighs 8,620, and your trailer by itself weighs 14,920, which gives your entire rig a weight of 23,540 (letter Z).

                            But wait a minute......what happened? The CAT worksheet says that your trailer (line "T") weighs 15,120. Damn, there's a 200 lbs error in there somewhere.

                            That 200 lbs error is because the formula that they use to calculate your trailer weight "K + C" is using an incorrect value for "K" (your kingpin weight). If you use MY calculation for kingpin weight (2,300 lbs instead of 2,500 lbs) and you add that to your trailer axle weight (letter C) then you arrive at the correct trailer weight of 14,920. (2,300 + 12,620 = 14,920).

                            Again, we KNOW 14,920 is the actual correct trailer weight (instead of 15,120) because we simply subtract total rig weight from unloaded truck weight (Z - Y).


                            OK....why does all this matter? Well since we're using incorrect numbers, your pin weight percentage is not correct. Instead of being 2,500 divided by 15,120 = 16.53%, your math SHOULD BE:

                            2,300 / 14,920 = 15.41%

                            Your pin weight is not 16.5%, it's actually 15.4%.

                            Is that 1.1% a big difference? I don't know. That's what you have to experiment with your weight distribution and figure out! Though, from my research, a lot of experienced towers believe that 1.1% would make a big difference.

                            Even the CAT scale worksheet (which I already have no faith in) says the pin weight should be between 17% and 25%. I think there's a LOT bigger jump from 15.4% to 17% than there is from 16.5% to 17%. In other words, I don't think that difference is "linear."

                            Apparently, according to the internet brain trust, that 20% pin weight is the "magic number," and the further you get away from that then more trouble you're likely to have. And apparently it's some sort of pseudo-logarithmic function because it seems that there is a bigger difference, at least in people's minds, between 15 to 16 than there is between 16 to 17, or 17 to 18, or 18 to 19, or 19 to 20.

                            I've never pulled a 5th wheel. I grew up pulling heavy gooseneck trailers and also have lots of experience with travel trailers and other "bumper pull" trailers. But, our first 5th wheel is on order now, and my hours and hours and hours of research into this subject (and a lot of others) has shown me that there are a LOT of people who claim, anecdotally, that when you start getting down into that 15% pin weight range, then the trailer can really start to act "squirrelly."

                            What does "squirrelly" mean? I don't know. The forum posts I've read say that there is a lot more "bouncing" around on the hitch, more "chucking," and the trailer, being more tail-heavy, is more prone to "sway" and whatnot when you get in that 15% area.

                            Again, is that true? I don' know, but that's the sort of things I've read, seemingly quite a bit.



                            Anyway, take that for what its worth. The bottom line is that people tend to think the further you get from 20% and the closer you get to 15% the trailer starts getting "goofy."

                            So do some experimentation with your loading, and with the CORRECT weight calculations, and see how things go. It would be interesting to hear follow up from you afterwards to see what you think.

                            Peace,

                            Ryan
                            Thank you Ryan for your informative post! Your math makes sense - thank you for catching the error in the CAT scale worksheet I used. The actual pin weight percentage of 15.4% is worse than I thought, but could help to explain the slight sway observed during our initial 1,000 mile trip.

                            The timing of your post is excellent because I am planning to re-weigh our rig soon. This is following the addition of a much heavier king size mattress and second battery in the front compartment. I also have weighed all of our camping items and will get as many of the heavier things up front closer to the pin. Since we plan to do some boondocking, I also will add close to a full load of fresh water to the tank which is behind the axles (but close) and maybe add 10 gallons or so in the black and gray water tanks that sit in front of the axles. I will have the ~600 motorcycle in the garage as well. I am hoping to offset the weight behind the axles with load distribution so the pin weight percentage does not go down any lower!

                            Again, I had zero experience with pulling rigs this size. The sway I mentioned in my original post was minor so that’s why I asked if it was normal. Thanks again for the info you provided.
                            Chuck & Vicki
                            2021 Momentum 320G w/ 8,000 lb axles & disc brakes
                            VIN: 573FM3822M1119697
                            2020 Ram Laramie 3500 w/ Cummins 6.7L turbo diesel, 4 x 4, SRW, short bed, air suspension, Andersen Ultimate Hitch

                            Comment


                            • #15
                              Those of you whom experience sway or any strange movements during traveling with partially full fresh water tanks should consider filling or emptying the tanks. Partially filled tanks slosh water which is the equivalent of someone in the camper running from side to side making sudden stops. I fill mine every time I travel just in case I need it on the road. If I use any, then I don't worry about refilling unless I experience issues. You may want to try pulling the unit with an empty tank or completely full tank to see how it affects the general trailering of the unit.
                              Joseph
                              Tow
                              Vehicle: 2024 GMC K3500 Denali Ultimate Diesel
                              Coach: 303RLS Delivered March 5, 2021
                              South of Houston Texas

                              Comment

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