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  • #16
    Originally posted by Jlawles2 View Post
    FYI the GM HD trucks typically follow interiors 1 year behind the 1/2 tons.

    As for the 450 vs the 350, double check as I think the new 350's have a better tow capacity than the 450's but you have to be cautious of the configuration.
    Originally posted by WondersAwait View Post

    The new interior on the GM half tons is absolutely stunning; really REALLY good. Unfortunately the HDs are behind as always and it's speculated the new interiors won't be in the HDs until 2024 models now.
    That's really unfortunate. That may push me away from GM...will still give them a look but unfortunate that is not in the HD lineup.

    ncitro was talking about bed and truck clearance - can anyone else attest to that? Not being able to open the tailgate or front compartment does not sound great! That seems too tight - like the hitch does need offset towards the rear a bit. Is this true of the short beds and long beds? Other manufacturers?
    2020 Imagine 2400BH
    2017 Ford F350 Platinum FX4/4x4 SuperCrew 6.7L V8 Diesel 9' Bed SRW, Leveled + Airbags

    Our Mods

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    • #17
      howson ncitro Jlawles2

      So have done a little more digging on the 350 vs 450 function. Tighter turning radius of 7-8 feet potentially (due to the larger front axle I believe). While this would push me in the direction of a 450 (and a lot of 450 benefits are understated - heavier brakes and other components) those heavier components appear to hurt cargo capacity on the truck.

      Apparently it is also more of a risk with coming into contact with the trailer in really tight turns AND puts additional stress on trailer axles, tires, wheels, springs, and shackles according to this post:

      https://www.ford-trucks.com/forums/1...your-f350.html

      While many love the 450 tighter turning radius - here are some quotes to save you a link click:

      The turning radius of an F350 CCLB is just under 30' meaning you need sixty feet in order to do a full circle. The turning radius of an F150 maxes out around 26', the F450 at 25', and your average Camry is 19'.
      It turns tight enough that I worry about making contact with any travel trailer I happen to be pulling through a turn. Even 5th wheels can get more than 90* if I don’t pay attention.
      I’ve developed this notion that the 350 is built for towing campers and the 450 is built for truck campers.
      Years ago I drove tank trucks hauling gas to mostly stations in the New Orleans area. We went from long nose conventional's to cabover's that had a much shorter turning radius. With a heavy trailer making these tight turns put extra stress on the trailer axles..tires and wheels and springs. Easier to make small stations in town but wrecked havoc on equipment. We went back to long wheelbase trucks and the problems eased off. Making tight turns with a trailer hooked up and loaded is never a good idea.
      I think this is a very smart point and I honestly have never thought about the differences between the turning radius of a F350 and F450 this way before.

      I have seen many travel trailers and 5th wheels with broken brackets in their suspensions due to the high stress of tight turns. A F350 would certainly be less prone to this.

      Maybe...just maybe the benefits of the turning radius comparison between a F350 and F450 are a bit overblown. In this one case maybe smaller is better (Ha ha) but maybe it is only incrementally better. We are only talking about a (approx) 8% tighter curb to curb on a F450. It's not as if it is 30% better...that would be a total game changer.

      Yes there will be times when a 450 can make a turn and a 350 won't. Yet with a little planning and estimating the 350 won't be that big of an inconvenience...and if the truck can help keep your trailer healthier and less stressed then maybe that is a hidden benefit.

      I do see the benefits of heavy truck campers riding inside the bed of a 450 rather than a 350. Wider track...bigger brakes, etc.
      Just sharing information! Would love to hear this groups thoughts on that. I have upgrade suspension on the Imagine and HD shackles from MorRyde. I would probably look into doing something similar if we bought the large 5th wheel.
      2020 Imagine 2400BH
      2017 Ford F350 Platinum FX4/4x4 SuperCrew 6.7L V8 Diesel 9' Bed SRW, Leveled + Airbags

      Our Mods

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      • #18
        bellis

        Attached is the summary that I put together on the difference between Ford and GM on the distance from centre of rear axle to end of open tailgate. This is true for either box length because there is no difference behind the axle. Just because you can turn more sharply with a certain truck, does not mean that you have to when towing. From your numbers, it looks like an F450 long box has about the same turning radius as an F350 short box . . . which is also a popular 5th wheel hauler. The big difference would be maneuverability when not towing. I can see the importance of bigger brakes on the F450. My F350 does not stop as quickly as my previous F150. Both have about the same size brakes, but the empty F350 weighs about 2000 lbs more.

        Rob

        Truck Length.pdf
        Cate & Rob
        (with Border Collies Molly & Angel + Kitties Hazel & Elsie)
        2015 Reflection 303RLS
        2022 F350 Diesel CC SB SRW Lariat
        Bayham, Ontario, Canada

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        • #19
          bellis Calbar

          I never really considered Ram . . . don't exactly know why. They used to be "work" trucks but have really stepped up their game in interior options in recent years. FWIW, almost all the RV delivery drivers run Ram trucks, reportedly for the Cummins diesel. One that I know has a million miles on his, with only regular maintenance. Ram should be worth a look.

          ​​​​​​​Rob
          Cate & Rob
          (with Border Collies Molly & Angel + Kitties Hazel & Elsie)
          2015 Reflection 303RLS
          2022 F350 Diesel CC SB SRW Lariat
          Bayham, Ontario, Canada

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          • #20
            Cate&Rob Rob, I think if you look around, you can find all of them with high mileage when it comes to RV delivery haulers.

            For example: https://pickuptrucktalk.com/2020/01/...two-gm-trucks/
            Joseph
            Tow
            Vehicle: 2024 GMC K3500 Denali Ultimate Diesel
            Coach: 303RLS Delivered March 5, 2021
            South of Houston Texas

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            • #21
              [QUOTE=bellis;n92343]



              That's really unfortunate. That may push me away from GM...will still give them a look but unfortunate that is not in the HD lineup.


              Some things are worth waiting for. I'm waiting for the 2023 model which has the new interior and will have the GM LZ0 light duty diesel with new 13200lb towing. This truck will get 30mpg empty. Understand the thought in moving up in rig size and the truck to tow it but you may also want to factor in the cost of energy in the future.

              Jim

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              • #22
                I can only speak for my setup when it comes to tailgate clearance but I have no issues with putting the tailgate down on our setup. In fact, I love the GMC's Multipro tailgate for hitching and unhitching because I can lower the "inner" tailgate along with the main tailgate and stand closer into the bed area for connecting chains and cables. Speaking of the Multipro (The GM tailgate that folds down into steps, or as a "desk" that they try to push on commercials), I really thought it was a bit of a gimmick when I first saw it, but having one has been amazing. I absolutely love having it on our truck. I wouldn't buy one just for that feature, but it's a really nice one to have. We're moving our rig this afternoon so I'll try to remember to snap a couple pictures of what I mean when hitching/unhitching.

                I am not a "GM is the best and the other trucks are garbage" person and we did look at both Ford and Rams when shopping for ours. Honestly I found that spec wise they were all really similar and all extremely capable. If you're looking at modern generations you can't make a bad choice between the big 3, it's just a matter of some of the small features available and what you prefer. My wife found the interior far more comfortable in GMC than the Ford and I like the exterior looks of the GMC we got more than any other option. The Fords have better dash and displays, which I do envy a bit, but that said I am not unhappy with our truck at all.

                Enjoy shopping because it can be fun if you make it that way.
                David and Deana
                2022 GMC Sierra 3500 AT4, CC, SRW, 6.6L L8T Gas, MYD 6-Speed
                2022 Reflection 303RLS w/ Gen-Y Executive Gooseneck Hitch

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                • #23
                  bellis I don't have any photos, but WondersAwait is my buddy with the gen Y. David can snap some photos of how the gooseball setup works, but basically the hitch stays on the camper all the time and all you have in the truck is a ball you take in and out.

                  I don't have any goose neck trailers,I just went this route because my first truck didn't have fifth wheel prep,so it was easier to add the gooseball and Andersen setup, and I wanted am empty bed when I unhooked.
                  Forum moderators are not GD employees--we are volunteers and owners presumably just like yourself. Unless specifically mentioned otherwise, we have nothing to gain should you choose to purchase a product or engage a service we discuss on this forum.

                  Neil Citro
                  2018 Reflection 28BH Pepwave
                  2019 F350 6.7L Long Bed Crew Cab

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                  • #24
                    Wow. For a post just up yesterday, I was amazed at the number of views. So I had to figure something unusual going on. But towing capacity and brand of truck tied together? OK, makes sense.
                    I for one, will say buy the cummins engine. The other engines just don't compare. The cummins is just head and shoulders above the competition. And when it comes down to it, you are buying a drivetrain, not a brand. Dodge doesn't engineer the engine or transmission. Just the body panels and the bling. So in my opinion, if you want the most bulletproof drivetrain, you get the Cummins/Aisin Ram truck. If looks are the most important to you, buy the one that looks best to you.

                    Excuse me while I put my flame retardent suit on.....

                    I should add, when I say "If looks are the most important to you, buy the one that looks best to you" is not to say the newest Ford and Duramax diesels are not any good, they are good engines now, just that the Cummins is better.
                    Last edited by Scott'n'Wendy; 08-16-2022, 06:39 AM.
                    2018 Dodge 3500 6.7 Cummins w Aisin and 9 cup holders
                    Not to brag or anything about my finances, but my bank calls me about every day to tell me my balance is OUTSTANDING!

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                    • #25
                      The Cummins is a nice engine but it has not been without issues like other makes with respect to specific model years. Moving into todays emissions packages has been a challenge for all makers including issues with the SCR, EGR, Turbos, Injectors, Pumps and more. I could own a Cummins, Duramax or Powerstroke and be fine with any one of them where they are all good engines today.

                      Jim

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                      • #26
                        Originally posted by bellis View Post

                        Do you have any pictures or a link you could share? I'm surprised that on unhooking you do not have anything in the bed. Would love to see a few others weigh in here. Did you do this so you could do 5th wheel and gooseneck towing?
                        Originally posted by WondersAwait View Post
                        We're moving our rig this afternoon so I'll try to remember to snap a couple pictures of what I mean when hitching/unhitching.
                        As promised, here's a few photos of our 303 hitching up with our Gen-Y. We went this route because we did not want to have to haul a giant hitch in/out of the truck bed every time we wanted to go between towing and traditional daily truck use, since the truck is also my daily driver.

                        Lining up:

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                        Tailgate open and bed rail clearances:

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                        As I said, the Multipro tailgate with both main tailgate and the inner-gate folded down makes it so you can get a good 8 inches closer into the bed, which makes a world of difference when reaching in to connect chains, breakaway, 7-way, and DC-DC connections:

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                        When we don't need to tow, the ball and chain connections simply pop out of the bed and into a nice case to be stored under the rear seat bench and we have quick and complete bed access. Another look at the Multipro with the step folded down and the grab-handrail up. I really thought the tailgate was silly before buying this truck but I absolutely love it now.

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                        David and Deana
                        2022 GMC Sierra 3500 AT4, CC, SRW, 6.6L L8T Gas, MYD 6-Speed
                        2022 Reflection 303RLS w/ Gen-Y Executive Gooseneck Hitch

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                        • #27
                          Originally posted by bellis View Post
                          So - broaching the age old question...

                          Apparently I am about to be in the market for a new truck. Per my signature we are currently towing an Imagine 2400BH and my half ton truck (with 4x4 and the larger SuperCrew cab on new trucks simply called "Crew Cab") is probably a little light for what we are pulling.

                          While I hope I am years out on a 5th wheel - the DW has been dreaming of a larger Solitude or Momentum for a year or more...so this could be in my future.

                          I won't buy a truck that is not 4x4 and the larger passenger Crew Cab is also required to haul the family comfortably while towing. I recognize that I may be buying something larger than what is needed - but would like to be clear of being right at cargo or at times over my cargo capacity when towing. Not to mention - possibly be able to tow a 5th wheel in the future.

                          Advice / Criticism is very much appreciated. Please question things!

                          1. I am leaning towards an F350 over other manufacturers and the 250. Would anyone recommend I look at RAM or others? My last truck buying experience was anti-Ford....and when I looked at the Ford's compared to others....well...I bought a Ford....ha! I also do not believe in my state that a commercial registration is required for the F350 - I am looking into as well as have a message to my auto insurance for some additional details.

                          2. I am leaning towards diesel > gas. Specifically the Diesel 6.7L PowerStroke V8 Turbo 10 Speed. What is the risk of the turbo going out on a Diesel truck? I know that is an issue that I have heard with Turbo's and can be pricey to repair/replace.

                          3. I am leaning SRW > DRW just for convenience (parking/drive throughs, cheaper on tires, etc.). I realize that a DRW may tow better and that it has better traction and inherently reduces/fights sway. I could be convinced to go DRW potentially. Probably way overkill for my current rig.

                          4. I am leaning toward the long 8' box to hopefully increase cargo capacity and towing (is this flawed thinking?) Longer wheelbase = more cargo/better towing? Also concerned in the future with 5th wheel hitch options on the short box? (just less options). Based off the 2021 spec sheet it looks like on the Crew Cab the shorter bed has great payload?!? (pages 6-10)

                          https://media.ford.com/content/dam/fordmedia/North%20America/US/product/2021/super-duty/21-Super-Duty-Pickup-Tech-Specs.pdf



                          This same greater payload is true of the F-250 SRW 4x4 short box over the long box in the Crew Cab. However, at GVWR 11,400 it appears to flip and start to favor the longer box truck. It looks like the heaviest Solitude hitch weight is ~3,100 lbs. and the heaviest Momentum hitch weight is ~3,600 lbs. (rounded up). Assume both of those are empty weights per GD's website. Per these numbers - concerned about payload on a future rig. The Momentum if maxed out at 20k would have an approximate pin weight of 4k lbs. The max Solitude weight of 16,800 x 20% would = ~3,360 lbs. Not a lot of point to a Crew Cab if the rig's tongue weight, driver, hitch, and misc. stuff in the truck maxes/exceeds cargo capacity and I don't have room for the DW and kids...

                          5. I was thinking truck would be purchased with 5th wheel prep even though I do not have one. Is that a mistake? Is that easy to add later or better to have factory prep?

                          6. Was thinking of going with the 3.31 Electronic Locking Axle Ratio - do I need to change this to 3.55? It does not look like it makes a difference to the towing rating. This may be too insignificant a difference. I think the lower ratio will grant 0.5-1 mpg better fuel economy.

                          Sorry for the long / detailed post. 5th wheel owners and truck aficionados please advise!
                          For what it is worth. I have the 2022 F350 crew cab long bed 6.7 with 3.55 rear end 4x4 King Ranch. The order form will say max GVW 11400, but door sticker says 12400. Now note the 3.55 gearing. If you search the mileage posts carefully the 3.55 gives as good or better single and towing. At speed its normally in 10th and not hunting. The one thing I wish I had was the rear sway bar for these rough twisting roads here in Alaska and Canada, but the KR does not offer the camper package that gives you the sway bar due to the 20" tires. I will be adding it when I get home (stock ford parts).

                          If SWMBO is looking at a larger unit and it has a GVW over 12000 I strongly recommend the dully. MY 04 was a dully and was much more stable in cross winds and theses roads. The F450 is de rated and will carry much more than the 350, but the tires are limited in selection, especially snow and speed rating. Look at that carefully.

                          My recommendation is a max GVW F350 CC dully long bed with camper package, 5th wheel prep package and the top rear bed camera which makes hitching up a breeze as you can see the hitch and king pin and just line up the lines on the display. With the long bed you get a stock 48 gallon tank. Also consider the e-locker for those slick muddy, wet grassy camp sites or snow traction. As for towing mileage I have ranged from 9 (75 mph) to 13.1 today 60-65. It keeps improving with mileage - have about 5600 miles as of today.

                          Good luck on your quest
                          Keith
                          2018 Reflection 150 Series 220RK 5th whee, Star White 2022 F350 King Ranch CC Long bed (HAL) (CCC 4062lbs), B&W 25K OEM Companion,. SteadyFast system, Trailer reverse lights, rear receiver spare tire holder, storage tube, sumo springs, Victron MultiPlus 12/120/3000, Solar, Custom 6K axles upgrade, and other modifications.

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                          • #28
                            WondersAwait David and Deana,

                            The step in bumper (for those without the multipro) was another great design as a simple and efficient method of getting into the bed of the truck. They have also incorporated a side step into the bed of the truck. As trucks became higher over time, the ability to work out of them has become difficult and sometimes near impossible for some.

                            Jim

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                            • #29
                              The GM multi-fold tailgate is definitely more "5th wheel friendly" than the Ford tailgate step, but much more complex. I suspect that GM had to work around some earlier Ford patents. The Ford step is simple, opens with one hand and puts the assist handle in a better location. An ideal setup . . . except when hitching to a 5th wheel trailer . . . where it is pretty much useless. The corner of either tailgate will still be the first point of contact if the truck and trailer are not aligned and you want to open the tailgate . . . but the Ford clearance is considerably less as described in an earlier post.

                              A solution to clearances and hitch visibility from the driver's seat while hitching/unhitching, is a manual slider hitch. I had a Reese version for years that worked well and now I have a B&W version that works even better. The motion of the trailer around a ball in the bed of the truck is considerably different than the motion around a hitch plate some 20" higher. This creates much more likelihood that the back corners of the truck box will come in contact with the underside of the 5th wheel on uneven ground with the gooseneck hitch. I can appreciate that it would be nice to not have that heavy hitch left in the box of the truck, but I have a hoist at home and on the rare occasion that I need the truck box empty while camping, I can leave the hitch attached to the trailer and release it from the truck bed.

                              Lots of "plus and minus" to each of these attributes . . . good discussion!

                              Rob

                              Click image for larger version

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                              Cate & Rob
                              (with Border Collies Molly & Angel + Kitties Hazel & Elsie)
                              2015 Reflection 303RLS
                              2022 F350 Diesel CC SB SRW Lariat
                              Bayham, Ontario, Canada

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                              • #30
                                Originally posted by Scott'n'Wendy View Post
                                Excuse me while I put my flame retardent suit on.....
                                We are fortunate that the regulars on this forum keep this one of the few places where a truck and hitch discussion can happen without flame retardant suits. LOL .

                                Rob

                                Cate & Rob
                                (with Border Collies Molly & Angel + Kitties Hazel & Elsie)
                                2015 Reflection 303RLS
                                2022 F350 Diesel CC SB SRW Lariat
                                Bayham, Ontario, Canada

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