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Towing Imagine 2800BH

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  • #31
    Guest Jim, what happens with the WDH hitch is that it creates a moment at the hitch location. Without sitting down and doing as Alex did (might require a few adult beverages since that math was 30 years ago), I cannot tell you how the results would look.

    I do know that trying to reach the same front height when I had a tongue pull would lift the rear of the truck enough to create traction issues. IIRC the WDH hitch I used, setup was focused on minimizing rear squat to about 1".
    Joseph
    Tow
    Vehicle: 2024 GMC K3500 Denali Ultimate Diesel
    Coach: 303RLS Delivered March 5, 2021
    South of Houston Texas

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    • #32
      For those interested in the math behind a WDH, see https://www.rv.net/forum/index.cfm/f...d/14265335.cfm

      Rob
      Cate & Rob
      (with Border Collies Molly & Angel + Kitties Hazel & Elsie)
      2015 Reflection 303RLS
      2022 F350 Diesel CC SB SRW Lariat
      Bayham, Ontario, Canada

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      • #33
        Thanks Rob. I figured someone went through the exercise and figured out how all the values worked. Without a tongue pull unit and some scales, it's an academic exercise.
        Joseph
        Tow
        Vehicle: 2024 GMC K3500 Denali Ultimate Diesel
        Coach: 303RLS Delivered March 5, 2021
        South of Houston Texas

        Comment


        • #34
          Originally posted by Jlawles2 View Post
          Guest Jim, what happens with the WDH hitch is that it creates a moment at the hitch location. Without sitting down and doing as Alex did (might require a few adult beverages since that math was 30 years ago), I cannot tell you how the results would look.

          I do know that trying to reach the same front height when I had a tongue pull would lift the rear of the truck enough to create traction issues. IIRC the WDH hitch I used, setup was focused on minimizing rear squat to about 1".
          Joseph,

          Agree the bars can be overdone to reduce traction. With the bags to pitch the truck plus the bars, I have been able to achieve the same front and rear height as being unloaded. I also agree its been decades since I've done some of the math so I just settle on the results I have achieved and not so much in how to prove it works.

          Jim

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          • #35
            Okay, so just got back from our trip last night and after 1200 miles with the Andersen hitch I can say it made a huge difference over my old hitch with no sway control. I was a little nervous so I took my old faithful 20 year old Reese hitch. I also needed it for tongue weight so I put it in the front storage bay where the future generator will be. But I don't owe it all to the new hitch as the tongue weight and distributing it on the truck was a significant factor. After we loaded I measured my hitch weight with the hitch scale and I was at 1060 lb, the camper was about 8000 with gear, so just over 13% on the tongue weight. Here were my stats below.

            Camper 8000 lb
            Hitch weight 1060 lb
            Truck bed had about 50 lb of miscellaneous 3 gallons of gas, MX boots (because they stink and I don't want to stink up the RV), a second empty gas can, an aluminum stand to measure hitch weight and another pound of junk or 2. The truck front had the wife and I, a couple phone chargers, (2) 3/4" drive breaking bars with a couple sockets for on the fly hitch adjustments if needed, 2 small hitch scales and that's about it I put the rest in the camper and wanted to save as much payload as possible. I figured with the hitch weight we had about 350 lbs left of the 1760 of available payload.
            Truck height from fender to ground was 37.5" on the front AND rear. Stock front ride height empty was 38" with no one up front. Rear dropped 3.5" from stock 41". That way I can confirm I added a little weight to the front and keep the front wheels doing what front wheels needed to do, steer the truck.
            Truck sway control: OFF this was recommended by the hitch manufacturer so I started out with it off and noticed a little later on when I restarted the truck and forgot to turn it off once with the truck suck.
            Lane keeping system of truck definitely OFF. You want some fun, leave that on. I don't know anyone that doesn't drag a line while towing, but you don't want any surprises while you are slowly correcting the situation on your own in the 1st place.
            I installed the RV on the hitch 1.5" lower from level on the front as Andersen instructions are a little low on the front or level and past experience tells me less porpoising when the pivot point is lower on the front and it doesn't seem to pull back up on the truck as hard so I ran with that. Followed the hitch instructions, hand tight at hitch just lowered on the ball then 4 revolutions each side. Here is a so-so picture below somewhere between DC and Richmond just off 95 on Christmas day, not so perfectly level spot, but this is what I got.



            Click image for larger version  Name:	image.jpg Views:	0 Size:	4.3 KB ID:	102431

            Hope that came out, you may have to click on it. Edit: Click on the photo instead for a larger shot.

            Now for the drive, we left Christmas in 20 mph sustained winds and 14 degrees and I get on the PA turnpike and head up the hill from New Stanton and drive through the twists and ups and downs to Breezewood then stay on I-70 to DC. I was nervous to go faster than 65 max, so that was it, I figured this was going to be a long drive and I will do some more truck upgrades upon my return and just stayed in the 60-65 mph range. But, once I got to Maryland and the wind calmed down and the sun came out I could go faster and 70 mph was not a problem once I figured how the hitch felt too.

            I noted before that if I can safely go 70mph and when needed go 75 to pass a truck (or a car that does't know how to use their cruise control😉) I would be happy and I met that goal and all of a sudden I was feeling pretty good about the setup. Now if you are going to ask me if there was no truck suck when a faster semi was passing me I would be lying if I said no but it was minimal and very predictable and I expected some having towed larger trailers. It's all relative when you are towing 8000 lbs with a 5000 lb truck or 13,000 lb with an 8000 lb truck you are going to have some no matter what. Another thing to note is when I was passing semis truck suck was almost nil. And it felt it was pulling on the camper, not the truck, or that was the sway control in the hitch giving me that feeling.

            Porpoising happened twice on the way down around DC on a bad road to bridge juncture and going about 60-65, none on the way back (but more on that below). It felt controlled, not unsafe, no discounting feeling and no bottoming out feeling, just 3 maybe 4 bounces and it was over, and no side to side sway, it was straight and one was around a turn. To me porpoising is when the suspension (shocks, mostly rear) can't recover in 2 up and down motions, so one bounce doesn't count in my book, that's just your rear suspension doing it's job. As the FX4 package shocks wear out down the road I will get some valved Bilsteins but I don't feel in a hurry about it at this point as I felt it was acceptable or I need to plan a little better myself and slow down a little if I see a spot on the road where I may porpoise.

            In the second half of the trip I was going to have to take my own water in, so everything was loaded the same for travel but with 100 gallons of water this time. I unfortunately was not able to weigh the hitch because we were in the sand at both locations and the RV was driving my stand into the sand in an unsafe manner so I did not get this vital piece of information yet. With the water there was some sway at 60 mph and the drive just sucked on a bouncy road. Definitely some porpoising going on here! Thank goodness we only were going 35 miles or I swear I was going to pull over in a parking lot and disconnect and measure the hitch weight. I don't know exactly where the water tanks are yet, but I swear it made the hitch weight lighter and I know it dropped the the ratio under 13%. I will get this measurement on the next trip. I probably could have tried an adjustment or 2 with the tension of the hitch, but we were a little on a time crunch.

            Heading home we left with at least a half to 2/3rd full black tank and everything else was empty, everything loaded the same as we left with less beer in the fridge. We had a 2 hour drive to 95 and get to a Love's to get rid of the black tank and we had a little more nuisance bounce than on the way down, but nothing unmanageable, just being picky at this point. After the dump everything was as pleasant as could be, I even went I-64, 81, and 522 for even less stressful traffic, why I even thought going through DC on the way down was a good idea I will never know. Totally worth the extra miles, probably less time because you can actually go the speed limit the entire time.

            Anyway there it is, I hope this can help someone trying to figure out their new or even old camper, hitch, hitch weight etc... I was half tempted to try the Cat scale myself at the Love's, but the wife wanted to get home and she does not have the same level of entertainment about this as myself. She noticed the sway we occurred the the whole ride home when we purchased the RV and couldn't go any faster than 64 mph without white knuckles. (I think she had them too) Now she doesn't notice anything except a couple bounces here and there so in her mind it's perfect, lol. Keep in mind if you are looking for a perfect setup and want your truck and camper to feel like you're driving your Porsche while towing it will just not happen, but it can be done safely and without white knuckles.

            In the future after this I'm just going to get good quality H rated LT tires, I honestly don't see how it will change much for me at least going to E tires since us 1/2 tons won't need 80 psi in them to get their true potential, but one of my guys (with the almost identical F150) will swear up and down about them and I'm not going to tell him any different, if he feels it helps then by all means do it, just my 2 cents. The other thing is a rear sway bar on the truck, I have no idea why there is not one on every truck. A car with over 400 horsepower definitely needs a sway bar but not a truck with over 400 horsepower, c'mon American truck engineers. And how about a sway bar for the camper? And as noted above, some better shocks with less rebound when fully compressed, 2 stage would be ideal. I'm not off roading anyway and don't need a quick rebounding "FX4 package" off road shock. After this trip I'm not in a hurry for anything, but when they need done why not upgrade...

            Any questions, concerns, comments fire away. Want to change this to towing with 21G that's cool too, I saw 3 or 4 of you 21G' guys on 95 on Monday. Oh, the camper, it's just awesome, so far... Cheers and happy towing!
            Last edited by GreggGDMomentum; 01-03-2023, 11:22 PM.
            Current: 22" Momentum 381MS, 2020 F350 Dually 6.7 diesel, 4.10 rear 32k Reese 5th wheel hitch
            In the past: 22' Momentum 21G, 21' F150 XLT Screw 5.0 w 3.73, Andersen Hitch
            Q7 Diesel, 22" Ozark THX 1900. 11' F350 Crew, King Ranch, 8' bed, dully, 08' Weekend Warrior LED 3505 triple axle 5th wheel. 04' F250 diesel, 05' Keystone tailgater with old Reese WD hitch, no sway control

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            • #36
              Excellent post! Each TV combination will require its own optimized setup where in my case, to greatly reduce porpoising, I leveled the rig and added more bar. Air bags eliminated it completely. Porpoising is the result of an underdamped system where the dynamic mass of the rig is accelerating down on the TV where additional bar or distributing more mass back to the rig with leveling can shift more of this load back on the rig. A good double acting shock such as the Bilstein will help here as well along with the air bags for anyone that is interested. Also for what its worth, I checked with the wheel engineer at a certain auto company who mentioned the half ton aluminum rims cannot handle 80psi for E rated tires where he suggested 65psi and below. Consider how much air to add and the effect on the tires contact patch. Traction can be lost with too much air pressure on a light weight TV.

              Below is a nice article on weight distribution and transfer methods in race cars. Some of these techniques can be applied to setting up a TV as well. Even to transfer just 100lbs to the front of a truck can greatly improve traction and minimize oversteer as an example.

              https://www.motortrend.com/features/...tion-transfer/

              Jim

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              • #37
                Originally posted by MidwestCamper View Post
                Excellent post!

                Jim
                Thanks Jim, yes I was sharing my own experience with everyone and hoped it can help some people. Anyway I couldn't wait and with a decent day with no rain (finally in western PA) I filled up the water tanks again to measure the change in the hitch weight. Filling up a full load of 100 gallons only added 60 lbs of tongue weight, but it does change the ratio of hitch weight/camper weight slightly so at the time I would have been under 13%. It's amazing what little changes do. 870 lbs would need 114 lbs of tongue weight to maintain my over 13% rule. I confirmed the rear tank is between the axels biasing on the rear axle and the front tank is over the front axle with a bias to the front of the camper, so that adds up. I actually could not resist and after I typed that and I went to order the Hellwig sway bar, but only one place had some in the US seemed to have them as of lasted evening and asking almost list for it. I will wait till they are plentiful and get it cheaper. But I could not resist and I ordered the 4600 rear Billsteins last night lol, a cheap improvement at $180. I am an old MX guy who certainly understands shock rebound and the FX4 are at least Ford says "off road" which would be a faster rebound/lower compression set up for a smoother off road ride. Like I said not in a hurry for anything because I was satisfied with my tow experience (without water) so I can be patient with the sway bar.

                I hope I didn't imply that anyone should put 80 psi in their half ton wheel as that would be a disaster, my bad if I did it was not my intention. What I meant was I always under the impression that E's are rated to 80psi and at a minimum you need a minimum of 65 psi to get the full benefit of the stiffness of a 10 ply E tire. Since we won't be doing that with our half tons I felt E's would not be that beneficial with the lower 1/2 ton pressures. My old F250 tire placard sticker was 65 front and 80 rear. I could be incorrect (it wouldn't be the first time,😉) but that's what the dealer told me when I bought that truck new in 2004. I can send an update after the rear shock install but it might be while because I don't know when I'm towing again, maybe 2 weeks, maybe longer.
                Cool article by motor trend, thanks for sharing and sharing your experience, cheers!
                Current: 22" Momentum 381MS, 2020 F350 Dually 6.7 diesel, 4.10 rear 32k Reese 5th wheel hitch
                In the past: 22' Momentum 21G, 21' F150 XLT Screw 5.0 w 3.73, Andersen Hitch
                Q7 Diesel, 22" Ozark THX 1900. 11' F350 Crew, King Ranch, 8' bed, dully, 08' Weekend Warrior LED 3505 triple axle 5th wheel. 04' F250 diesel, 05' Keystone tailgater with old Reese WD hitch, no sway control

                Comment

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