Victron Inverter / Battleborn Battery Install Question(s)!

[howson]

Brian,
This sounds similar to the problem I had that's documented here: https://gdrvowners.com/forum/operati...ained-now-what

Make sure and read through the whole thread, because I don't get to the actual "fix" until post 14.

Once the batteries are charged you shouldn't have an issue.

You did remove the WFCO converter from the circuit, correct?

Howard

[howson]

Retgw2 -- reading through your post again...when you turn on that first switch, is the CCGX powered on as well as the BMV-712?

[Retgw2]

Retgw2 -- reading through your post again...when you turn on that first switch, is the CCGX powered on as well as the BMV-712?

Hi Howard, yes on both of your questions. both the CCGX and the BMV-712 power up through the first switch, and the OEM converter was completely disconnected. I'll re-read you previous thread. Thanks

[Retgw2]

Hi Howard, yes on both of your questions. both the CCGX and the BMV-712 power up through the first switch, and the OEM converter was completely disconnected. I'll re-read you previous thread. Thanks

So after reading your thread again it looks like your issue was that your CCGX was not powering up before the inverter, but mine has been set up to do that already. Can you think of a reason why so far this has only occurred when I had my master 30amp fuse shut off? Just doesn't make sense to me I haven't played with programming the inverter since it came preprogrammed from Battleborn and If at all possible i would like to stay out of those weeds.😳

[howson]

Can you think of a reason why so far this has only occurred when I had my master 30amp fuse shut off?

No, unfortunately. Based on your statement that the whole system works when 120vAC is "sitting" at the inverter prior to applying 12vDC, a physical connection issue is highly unlikely. Your wiring looks very clean (per the pic in post 9). I doubt it's a battery issue because when you disconnect from shore power if a battery was "bad" it would bring down the system immediately. Therefore my guess is the problem's a setting issue. It could be in the BMV, CCGX, or the inverter or a combination of all three.

...I haven't played with programming the inverter since it came preprogrammed from Battleborn...

"Pre-programmed" does not necessarily mean the settings are optimized for your configuration. If you want, we can compare settings and discuss any differences.

Assuming your answer is "yes", do you have a VRM Portal established and can you access it from your computer? If you have a VRM account then taking snapshots of your screen (and the Victron settings) is easy right from your computer. If you do not have a VRM portal, I suggest leaving that for another day as that task may take us down an unproductive rabbit hole at this juncture.

Do you have the Victron Connect app loaded on your phone? If not, I suggest doing so now and connecting to the BMV through the bluetooth connection. For the CCGX we'll use it's screen interface directly.

Back to the phone--can you take screenshots? On my Android, pressing the power and down volume buttons simultaneously takes a screenshot. Easy to share pics of settings.

Willing to step through and help you figure this out, but it may take a bit until we find the "aha!".

[Retgw2]

No, unfortunately. Based on your statement that the whole system works when 120vAC is "sitting" at the inverter prior to applying 12vDC, a physical connection issue is highly unlikely. Your wiring looks very clean (per the pic in post 9). I doubt it's a battery issue because when you disconnect from shore power if a battery was "bad" it would bring down the system immediately. Therefore my guess is the problem's a setting issue. It could be in the BMV, CCGX, or the inverter or a combination of all three.



"Pre-programmed" does not necessarily mean the settings are optimized for your configuration. If you want, we can compare settings and discuss any differences.

Assuming your answer is "yes", do you have a VRM Portal established and can you access it from your computer? If you have a VRM account then taking snapshots of your screen (and the Victron settings) is easy right from your computer. If you do not have a VRM portal, I suggest leaving that for another day as that task may take us down an unproductive rabbit hole at this juncture.

Do you have the Victron Connect app loaded on your phone? If not, I suggest doing so now and connecting to the BMV through the bluetooth connection. For the CCGX we'll use it's screen interface directly.

Back to the phone--can you take screenshots? On my Android, pressing the power and down volume buttons simultaneously takes a screenshot. Easy to share pics of settings.

Willing to step through and help you figure this out, but it may take a bit until we find the "aha!".

After thinking about this all night with your diagnostic process in the other thread I believe that you are correct and it isn't a problem on the 120vAC side but is most likely an issue with powering the CCGX.

The first time this issue occurred the BMV was active but it is powered off the shunt and I found that the OEM battery switch was turned off so the CCGX would not have been on when the batteries shut down. The second time it occurred I think I had turned on both battery switches in a fairly quick succession, which probably didn't allow the CCGX enough time to power up before the inverter. And this last time that it occurred I tried a different startup sequence by turning on the second battery switch first so that the inverter received power immediately after the primary battery switch was activated, which again would mean the CCGX would not have had time to power up before the inverter. This is just an assumption at this point but compared to your findings seems to be a reasonable one since the system fired up perfectly yesterday when I did all the steps in the correct order.

Unfortunately I don't have the VRM portal set up at this time, but yes I do have the Victron app. It will be a while before I can get back to the trailer to get some screen shots but as always thank you for your willingness to take a look.

[howson]

After thinking about this all night with your diagnostic process in the other thread I believe that you are correct and it isn't a problem on the 120vAC side but is most likely an issue with powering the CCGX.

The first time this issue occurred the BMV was active but it is powered off the shunt and I found that the OEM battery switch was turned off so the CCGX would not have been on when the batteries shut down. The second time it occurred I think I had turned on both battery switches in a fairly quick succession, which probably didn't allow the CCGX enough time to power up before the inverter. And this last time that it occurred I tried a different startup sequence by turning on the second battery switch first so that the inverter received power immediately after the primary battery switch was activated, which again would mean the CCGX would not have had time to power up before the inverter. This is just an assumption at this point but compared to your findings seems to be a reasonable one since the system fired up perfectly yesterday when I did all the steps in the correct order.

Unfortunately I don't have the VRM portal set up at this time, but yes I do have the Victron app. It will be a while before I can get back to the trailer to get some screen shots but as always thank you for your willingness to take a look.

I typically wait for my CCGX to completely power up before turning on the second shutoff switch, so you may be on to something.

I look forward to reading the results!

Howard

[Retgw2]

So after a month of chasing an electrical gremlin that involved consulting with Battleborn Batteries, a local installer and howson and trying one thing after another, I was finally able to resolve the issue as identified in post #15 of this thread. In short, each time I powered up the Victron Inverter after being disconnected from any power source for a period of time the BMS of the most negative battery in my setup would trip and shut down the entire battery bank to a voltage of around 2-3 volts.

At the heart of what I was encountering is the high in-rush of electrical current needed to precharge the inverter's capacitors, which I have been told is slightly over the 200amp 1/2 second surge limit that the Battleborn Battery's BMS will allow. Even though the current needed by the inverter would ultimately be distributed equally among my three batteries, I can only guess and conclude that for the split second it took the batteries to shut down the first battery in parallel was able to see the entire current load and react before it could be transferred to the other two.

Similar shut down issues with lithium batteries and Victron Inverters have been documented in other forums and for the most part is known to Battleborn where the remedy is typically made by downsizing the battery cables from 4/0 to 2/0 for the 3000 watt and 2000 watt inverters. In fact Battleborn actually carries a current surge limiter that is recommended for inverters 4000 watts and above for their high in-rush current flows.

The objective to downsizing the cable is to use the cable itself to restrict the current flow and slow it to the point that the BMS would not trip. Since my trailer is 30amp service I didn't have any concerns with downsizing to 2/0 cable since it still exceeds any 300amp/12 volt draw that I would potentially encounter. Only problem is that this didn't resolve my situation and the shut downs continued.

In a last ditch effort I was finally able to figure out that in my attempt to build my system with as short of cable runs as I could to minimize voltage drop, the shorter cables contributed to the problem. In fact the negative cable between the batteries and the shunt is/was only 8 inches in length. When I changed it out to a 3 foot cable the problem was solved. Much like the downsizing of the cable restricted current flow, a longer cable also restricts flow and between the two modifications I was finally able to get the in-rush slowed enough that it did not trip the BMS for the first time.

I hope this may help if anyone else has a similar situation. I think a cable run of at least 5 feet between the batteries and the Inverter would have prevented this issue from the beginning. I would also throw out a thought for those who have 50amp service or more than three batteries and encounter this situation where maintaining 4/0 cabling is preferred and a longer cable run isn't made; which is to connect the batteries in parallel though a busbar instead of through the battery posts to help distribute the current surge between them so that no single battery encounters the entire surge (IMHO).

Brian

[gbkims]

Glad you sorted out your problem.

I got the impression from reading this post and a couple on victron community that b/c of the low internal resistance of the lithium batteries and the Multiplus' capacitors being discharged if it's turned off, that's when the inrush would trip the BMS.
Some suggested a precharge of the capacitors through a temporary connected 100 ohm resistor would help.
https://community.victronenergy.com/...t-on-init.html
https://community.victronenergy.com/...ttery-bms.html

[Retgw2]

Glad you sorted out your problem.

I got the impression from reading this post and a couple on victron community that b/c of the low internal resistance of the lithium batteries and the Multiplus' capacitors being discharged if it's turned off, that's when the inrush would trip the BMS.
Some suggested a precharge of the capacitors through a temporary connected 100 ohm resistor would help.
https://community.victronenergy.com/...t-on-init.html
https://community.victronenergy.com/...ttery-bms.html

Thanks Gene,

After lengthy discussions with Battleborn that included internal meetings with their CEO because my situation seemed to be more extreme than those that they had encountered before I do believe that the BMS preset current surge limit is what is shutting down the batteries.

I was able to read both of the victron community posts you listed. I think the 100 ohm resistor suggestion is simply another "work around" to the slow the in-rush of current as compared to modifying the cables so that the BMS restriction of over 200 amps for 1/2 a second isn't triggered. I personally am not technically advanced to the point that I wanted to get involved with the resistor solution, but it sounds like it is another way to skin the cat.

[gbkims]

Thanks Gene,

After lengthy discussions with Battleborn that included internal meetings with their CEO because my situation seemed to be more extreme than those that they had encountered before I do believe that the BMS preset current surge limit is what is shutting down the batteries.

I was able to read both of the victron community posts you listed. I think the 100 ohm resistor suggestion is simply another "work around" to the slow the in-rush of current as compared to modifying the cables so that the BMS restriction of over 200 amps for 1/2 a second isn't triggered. I personally am not technically advanced to the point that I wanted to get involved with the resistor solution, but it sounds like it is another way to skin the cat.

I continue to be amazed by the complexity of this stuff.
Thanks a lot for detailing the problem and your solution.