General Construction Concerns.

[OffToHavasu]

So this weekend we're heading to the So Cal RV show to look at some models (RV, not the other kind). Then I see this video: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mEUm...ature=youtu.be

I don't want to be one of "those people" with the knee jerk reaction, but there are a few things in that video that give me serious pause.

Yes, they went above and beyond on the repair, and that's not a bad thing. But let's discuss the factory issues that are red flags.

1) The truss that was cut about an inch too short and had a ton of staple put through it to "make it right". What???
2a) The few screws used in each sheet of plywood to attach the roof to the truss.
2b) Using the wrong type of fasteners.
2c) Driving the fasteners used in too far.
3) The electrical. As the late great Dick Enberg use to say, "Oh my." A few people on here know my electrical background. This makes me shutter. Just as the guy in the video says, how can you skimp on PENNIES over safety? It doesn't take a rocket surgeon to understand wire + metal = bad.

Those were the big items that stuck out to me. Yes the curbing they made was nice, but I totally understand that's not an industry standard. Safety, on the other hand, should be.

I know, I know, other manufacturers are doing it the same way. Well, I haven't been looking at other manufactures, I've been looking at Grand Design. And yes, Don Clark told me a few years ago, "Well these are human made and mistakes are going to happen." These items go beyond that. The missing grommets on EVERY electrical chase is just scary and foolish.

So now it's time to think, and think hard. We still plan on making it out to the show Saturday, but wow.

Oh Cate&Rob TucsonJim and JCR GD he FINALLY retired!

[JCR GD]

JFWIW... when my roof was off I had a brief chance to see what was underneath. None of those issues were apparent. Two things come to mind, mine is a 2015 that had very good fit and finish throughout and it's a Momentum. Not sure if that means anything...

Have fun!

[OffToHavasu]

JFWIW... when my roof was off I had a brief chance to see what was underneath. None of those issues were apparent. Two things come to mind, mine is a 2015 that had very good fit and finish throughout and it's a Momentum. Not sure if that means anything...

Have fun!

Thanks Jim. I did take the line in to thought as well. So one of two issues come to mind, 1) The lower the line, the lesser the quality. Which, in a way, is understandable, BUT not for the items above. OR 2) Since 2015, the quality has gone down.

We'll see what happens.

[TucsonJim]

Hi Curtis

Man I hate seeing those kind of reports. As you've probably seen, I've had more than my share of quality issues over the years. Fortunately, GDRV has stood up and take care of everything. But I'd much rather have it done right the first time instead of done right the second time.

I will say that I saw very little difference in quality between my 2014 and 2017 units. And from what I'm seeing today on most units is that there hasn't been a corresponding decrease in quality as the quantity of units goes up. Most of the issues I find I can take care of myself. And if there are big issues, GDRV takes care of them.

Jim

[OffToHavasu]

Hi Curtis

Man I hate seeing those kind of reports. As you've probably seen, I've had more than my share of quality issues over the years. Fortunately, GDRV has stood up and take care of everything. But I'd much rather have it done right the first time instead of done right the second time.

I will say that I saw very little difference in quality between my 2014 and 2017 units. And from what I'm seeing today on most units is that there hasn't been a corresponding decrease in quality as the quantity of units goes up. Most of the issues I find I can take care of myself. And if there are big issues, GDRV takes care of them.

Jim

Good to know Jim. My concern is, as that video shows, is what you can't see. That electrical issue and that truss issue raises a big concern.

[TucsonJim]

That video is just painful to watch.

[Cate&Rob]

Hi Curtis,

Good to hear from you and to learn that "he" has finally retired! LOL!!

There is no excuse for what you point out. It is shoddy workmanship and Grand Design knows better. The entire Indiana RV industry pays by piecework. The guy who can get the job passed on to the next work station in the least amount of time, makes the most $/hr.

My experience (similar to Jim's & other's) is that I am constantly fixing the "small" stuff and GDRV has taken care of the "big" stuff. I will admit that I have read reports on FB and the "other forum" about how GDRV is not stepping up to other's problems. I have no explanation for this. It does not fit how every executive at Grand Design (including Don Clark) has explained to me face-to-face about how they do business.

I have no first hand knowledge about how other RV manufacturer's take care of their customers. Everything that I read is not good. I would really like to see you become part of the "Grand Design Family". Over the past five years, you have provided as much good advice on solving technical issues with GDRV products, as any owner.

Let us know what you decide . . . .

Rob

[OffToHavasu]

Hi Curtis,

Good to hear from you and to learn that "he" has finally retired! LOL!!

There is no excuse for what you point out. It is shoddy workmanship and Grand Design knows better. The entire Indiana RV industry pays by piecework. The guy who can get the job passed on to the next work station in the least amount of time, makes the most $/hr.

My experience (similar to Jim's & other's) is that I am constantly fixing the "small" stuff and GDRV has taken care of the "big" stuff. I will admit that I have read reports on FB and the "other forum" about how GDRV is not stepping up to other's problems. I have no explanation for this. It does not fit how every executive at Grand Design (including Don Clark) has explained to me face-to-face about how they do business.

I have no first hand knowledge about how other RV manufacturer's take care of their customers. Everything that I read is not good. I would really like to see you become part of the "Grand Design Family". Over the past five years, you have provided as much good advice on solving technical issues with GDRV products, as any owner.

Let us know what you decide . . . .

Rob

Thanks Rob. Caveat, we're going this weekend narrow down to the model we want. There are options that the dealer won't have so we will need to order, BUT we won't do that until around February or March because if we order now, we take the risk of delivery over salt roads. And being a So Cal boy, we won't expose our trailer to that at anytime.

The damnable misery is, all the manufacturers are doing it this way. It is literally stupid to skimp on a bushing less than a penny that would protect the wire. That is just baffling to me. And in all honesty, this has kept me up at night. I love the GD product and the family. I've had so much fun with you guys. But this just makes me shake my head in disbelief.

Maybe GDRV-Emily GDRV-Megan can shed some light on this, not to us, but executives at GD. The bottom line shouldn't sacrifice safety.

[Country Campers]

Curtis

You are spot on with your uneasiness in relation to any RV manufactured. A quote from my local RV dealer service manager , does not sell GD , " if you ever do a factory tour you will never buy another RV". This was after his first factory tour. We had purchased our GD unit in the fall of 17' under the "want list". We like just about everything about it. After purchase we found the forum and before becoming a member I spent days of reading all of the "bad" stuff and all of the items that owners have fixed themselves. This got me to worry that we may have made the wrong decision. Our previous TT was manufactured in 2010 by KZ RV we bought in spring of 2011. We had one window leak and one broken drawer front that was fixed under warranty. Two issues over 7 years of ownership had us spoiled , there units today have plenty of issues we have 2 one year old units in our camping group. So back to our new purchase and reading about all of the problems. I spent time reading the forum and checking our unit for issues stated there and found a few but not many. The only big issue , so far , has been the bottom seal had about a one inch gap on the slide in the bedroom. This was discovered on our first outing in the spring with 15 mph winds blowing across a cold lake , freezing in bed to say the least was not fun. After using it for the first summer and going to the National Rally we got to do a factory tour. As we started I remembered what my service guy said and it all cam true. Seeing some of the items that have been mentioned by other owners had me seeing stars. I seen some roof trusses that had plenty of staples in them and only a few that were holding onto something. But as stated this is piece work and has to be done fast. I agree with you stating that safety should come first , but unfortunately it does not. I wish that GD could step up there game and slow down production and increase quality. I also wish that they would actually do the "288 point inspection" so that many of the issues that are reported would never get to the customer. Would we get another GD product?, not sure but they would have first look. When we were shopping we were looking for a list of items and a certain quality , this time GD was the choice because they met most of that , next time they may not be.
Choose the right RV for what you are looking for and hopefully you do not have any problems with it , but choose the right one and enjoy it.

Good luck with the shopping and I have also been glad to read your knowledgeable posts of my short time being involved in this "stress" induced environment.

Brian

[TucsonJim]

As for that plastic bushing in the header... I'm not so sure that's needed. That was the roofing guy's opinion. I've never heard of a short or open circuit in that area along with being presented any evidence of fraying through the insulation. I've never heard of a fire caused in that area. Grand Design is well over 100,000 units and there have been very few fires. Most were caused by the tow vehicle or the refrigerator.

The roofer kept talking about residential building codes. But there are no codes for installing a plastic washer on the top plate where the wiring goes in a home. He also said there was a burr in the hole. But in my opinion, that would never cause an issue. It's not like the wire is shifting back and forth through the hole. Both the wood and the plastic are insulating material and will not pass current if there ever was a rub through.

[OffToHavasu]

TucsonJim

I think you're missing something. The romex goes in to a conduit at the plate. The romex is rubbing on the edge of the conduit. You don't see that in residential because that's not allowed. In the video, that sharp turn on the conduit could most definitely create a problem.

[OffToHavasu]

Thanks Country Campers

[TucsonJim]

TucsonJim

I think you're missing something. The romex goes in to a conduit at the plate. The romex is rubbing on the edge of the conduit. You don't see that in residential because that's not allowed. In the video, that sharp turn on the conduit could most definitely create a problem.

I did miss that. I went back and watched the video again. I see what you're talking about now.

Jim

[Guest]

The new roof looks very nice but I would have a few issues in how this one was installed as well.

1) Staples were used on the sheeting where they should have taken the time to screw the sheeting on.
2) Exposed screws on the skylight where a snow/ice load could result in leakage around the screws. Exposed screws on any horizontal surface is not good.
3) Front and rear trim where the plastic insert is all that protects the screws from leakage. I would rather have it poured full of Alpha sealant.

For GDRV, we learned in the auto industry from the sins of the 70's that once your reputation is damaged it can have lasting consequences. Domestic auto's and trucks today are as good or better than foreign competitors but the perception of the lack of quality with some, still remains.

Jim

[Chiefblueman]

Curtis,
I have noticed an increase in overall quality between my '17 315 and the new 2020. I've pulled exterior screws to seal them and found sealant already there. The chassis and running gear changes, at least on this model, are heartening to see. There are even some good improvements in the wiring of the coach, adding 12v cbs and using better connectors in places.
You and I both come from an electrical background and I'm sad to say, wiring and safe wiring practices are still a problem. There exists NO workmanlike manner. I still see wiring stretched bowstring tight to a device with no support, lack of wire ties, strangling heat ducts with wire on either side and heck, it looks like 3 guys went at it at once and installed the wiring while wrestling one another. Willy nilly, which gives me the willies. It's an area I wish GDRV would address.