303RLS Upgrade Plan

[COReflection]

Good morning! So I am a new GD RV owner and desiring to outfit my Reflection 303 RLS with some additional solar capacity, lithium batteries and an inverter to power the TV, sound system and BR player to watch a few movies while on our weekend boondocking trips. I have read this forum and received lots of useful info by the pros who are blazing the trails that I haven't yet. According to what I have read...here is my draft plan. Can everyone chime in and see if I am tracking?

-- Add 2 more solar panels to my existing 165w Furrion OEM panel. Utilize the same control interface box on the roof and the existing 10 gauge wire for the additional panels. I'm assuming I can run two more in series with my existing and still stay within the same wire size for the amperage.
-- Add a new 2-3000 watt inverter with auto transfer switch and wire it into the existing "inverter pre-wire" scenario that exists from the factory per Ken's diagram. If I use an inverter with an auto transfer switch built in...I will not need an external transfer switch. My question here is....do I need an inverter/charger or just an inverter? Since I am only desiring to power the three circuits that GD has mapped via the fuse panel....and will leave the factory converter/charger in place....which one do I need and why?
-- Replace the LA batteries that cam with the unit for about 400-500aH of my fav LiPO4 batteries. I have one Big Battery now with 228aH and I may add an additional in parallel.

I'm thinking this combo will more than suffice for my 12 frigerator needs, the water pump and some LED lighting, occasional movie viewing, furnace usage if required, and extra reserve. What am I missing and is my logic sound? On the solar panels...is there a specific brand or model that works better with that I have? Are there ones that work better with partial shading? What is my determining criteria for expanding that solar array and using the current connection point on the roof and the wiring to the Furrion MPPT charge controller that already exists.

Thanks for the help!

[WondersAwait]

Morning!

I also have a '22 303 with the 165w panel. You didn't say the size of the MPPT yours came with but I'm going to assume it's the 50A like mine is. I added 2x Renogy 200w (https://a.co/d/8xpRQaj) panels and wired them in series with the Furrion 165 and am using the pre-installed wire runs and MPPT. I selected the Renogy because the current was the closest I could find to the Furrion meaning I would get the most optimal output possible when wiring different panels in series; I believe my theoretical max is 563w from the advertised 565w of panels on my roof. This combination keeps me within specs of the existing wires and controller but getting pretty close as to maximize what I can do with what was already given to me. On a best case scenario with clear skies, clean panels, and "perfect" placement I was able to bring in about 40a so I think I nailed it. Especially being someone who is pretty new to this myself. If I end up getting more panels in the future it will require new wiring and controller so I have tentative plan to keep some of this intact and add on, but knowing myself I'll probably redesign the whole array and roof at that point. That said, this is plenty to get me through for now.

I setup a Victron Multiplus II inverter and wired it to support the entire rig, so I am not much help on using the pre-wired inverter prep. I'll let someone more knowledgeable than I chime in on what you'll need for that part of your setup.

Your battery plan sounds solid. I started with 210ah of LiFePO4 and we did weekend boon-docking trips just fine. I did upgrade to 630ah though because I knew we wanted the ability to boondock for longer periods of time without having to pray for clear sunny days or get the generator going daily. Also wanted to get the batteries around the same time so they'd be pretty even in their usage. It wasn't a cheap upgrade but buy once, cry once. We're thrilled with how the system has turned out for us. We boondocked for a full week at the Albuquerque Balloon Fiesta a few weeks ago and we were not sparing about our power use at all; coffee pot couple times a day, hairdryer, etc. It was cloudy all week so solar input was low and we only really needed to use the generator once. It was great.

I have a thread on my install here: https://gdrvowners.com/forum/operati...lectrical-mods

Good luck, take your time, and have fun!

[howson]

COReflection -- whew...a lot of questions in one post. Please take a moment to review the Welcome Letter to New Members. As you'll read in that letter, one question per post is the norm on this forum. In this case giving the final result desired is wise, but asking one question at a time is the way to approach getting the answers in a thread that doesn't wander all over the place.

I'll start with the solar controller question. The manual for the Furrion states the maximum VoC (Open Voltage) allowed is 70v. The Furrion 165W panel has a VoC of 23.12v, so three in series = 69.39v. This is very close, so it must be understood that the VoC spec from the panel is under laboratory conditions. In a cold environment a panel could exceed the spec. Unlikely, but if the three panels exceeded the 70v VoC the controller may fail.

EDIT: Oops--I'm wrong! Max voltage is 135V. (I quoted the max voltage of the 25A version of the Furrion. Thanks for the correction, gtippett in post 10.)

Consider, too, the difficulty getting Furrion 165W panels, their cost, and the fact they use proprietary connectors.

Lots of other options from here on the solar question...from replacing everything, adding a second system (leaving the Furrion in place as is), or the most conservative which is adding a second Furrion 165W panel (if you can find one) and call it good. (Having done all of what you're talking about, solar is the least important component unless you're doing a LOT of boondocking and the roof will experience a lot of sun exposure.)

If anything above is "greek"--ask more questions or better yet get Will Prowse's Mobile Power Made Easy! book off Amazon. Well worth the money.

Howard

[COReflection]

David---thanks for the reply. That helps. I do have that same 50A charge controller but I appear to have the Jaboni solar port on the roof with the MC4 connectors. I think connecting in additional panels should be easy. I will do some research on the panels you've suggested.

I'm really trying to determine if I need to leave the existing OEM charger/converter in the unit if I were to get a charger/inverter or to pull that device because the functionality of that is now provided by the inverter/charger. I have seen where some leave it and others remove it.

[COReflection]

Howard--thanks for the response and the guidance on the forum. I will try and not overload the responders. Lol

As noted in my other post above....I think I have the Jaboni solar port on the roof with the MC4 connectors but I need to verify again by opening the cover on that port and verifying. If that is the case, It appears that I can add a host of different vendors panels as long as they have the MC4 connectors right? I'm really interested in feedback as to which panels work the best with full and limited sunlight.

I also need to figure out the inverter/charger question noted above too.

Thanks also for your tip on the book. I had already ordered that book and it arrived last evening. I intend to blow through it this weekend and get more enlightened.

[Country Campers]

I have installed the Multiplus 2 as well and left the factory converter/charger in place. If I wish to remove all of the inverter/battery items at some point all I will have to do is plug the factory converter/charger back in and it is ready to go. The factory converter/charge should be plugged in to the back of the power distribution panel.

Brian

[COReflection]

Brian----are you saying that if it's left in place....it gets unplugged from the fuse/breaker panel or what's it's connected state if left in place with an inverter/charger and using the "inverter prep" circuit breakers in the Reflection? Thanks!

Dave

[howson]

COReflection -- if you're going with LifePO4 my .02 is to get an inverter/charger. Plan on mounting the inverter/charger close to the battery bank to minimize the distance of the DC wiring between the two. A 3000VA Victron can pull and maintain 250 amps from the 12vDC battery bank and can surge much higher for brief periods, so keeping losses low in the wiring is crucial.

For charging, the norm is 1/2 of a batteries "C" rating. (Google it if you don't know what that is.) For Battle Born, the C rating is 100 amps. So the maximum charging rate for a standard Battle Born battery is 50 amps.

Now how many batteries will there be in the bank? I have four Battle Born batteries in parallel, so theoretically a charger that charges at 200 amps would be ideal. Look at the specs for the 12/3000/120 Multiplus and you'll discover the maximum is 120 amps, so when going full tilt the maximum each battery in my setup will get is 30 amps.

That's a long way to write you absolutely, 100% want to get an inverter/charger if you're going lithium and will have an inverter. Do some searching here on the forum for the WFCO Auto Detect charger and you'll discover a lot of disappointed owners. Look at the ratings for the WFCO and the OEM wiring (to determine maximum allowable charging) and you'll quickly see the limitation of the OEM setup with a lithium battery bank of any size.

So why do some owners leave the OEM converter installed? As a "backup" for the Victron. (Just teasing those owners, but I think what they are really doing is carrying a spare for another owner that ends up with a failed WFCO.)

Since you have a 50A rig, I'd buy a Victron Multiplus II 3000VA. Victron equipment is not cheap, but it works great.

Assuming a 12v battery bank, that means a minimum of three 100Ah batteries (more is better). Why? Because each battery is rated to deliver up to 100 amps. So to get the full output from the Multiplus' inverter (25 amps of 120vAC) the battery bank has to deliver 250 amps of 12vDC. This is known as the "rule of 10". It's actually just the basic formula V x I = W. Given watts are the same (3000), if volts go down amps go up and vice versa.

Sorry--getting off track. So if the batteries have to deliver 250 amps that means at least three batteries are required. Since I'm freely spending your money for you, two of Battle Born's 270aH "Game Changer" batteries is what I'd buy and install today. (There are good batteries available from other sources that are less expensive--my personal experience is with Battle Born and have found them to be a fantastic product.)

Finally, if going Victron factor in buying a Cerbo GX device (with the optional monitor), too. The Cerbo will open up an entirely new set of options and control over your setup.

Howard

[COReflection]

Howard---thanks for the detailed explanation and I get and understand everything you wrote. I have been struggling the most with the converter/charger piece and whether it's needed. I was under the impression that the converter/charger provided real-time 12v power to the DC side of the fuse panel when on shore power in addition to charging the batteries. If I removed that device and went with the Victron Multiplus as you noted.....will it also provide 12 VDC real time power to my DC fuse panel or is the DC side just being fed by the battery bank and the Victron is essentially just re-charging the batteries at the same time?

I want to go with something simple that works. I think the "inverter-prep" option in my Reflection seems to be setup to just leave the converter/charger in place since it will not be powered when the inverter feeds the one designated circuit breaker in the panel. This is ensuring there is no loop I would guess when running the inverter. I am open to removing the converter....that's easy. I just want to understand the whole 12vDC panel powering when on shore power. Maybe I am over thinking this and the Victron is smart enough to do everything a converter/charger can do plus includes the inverter functions. My Reflection has two fuse panels...one for DC and the other for AC. I don't know if the converter/charger has two output plugs--one for DC and one for AC? My last converter/charger just had one 120/240 output plug that plugged directly into the one fuse pane which included both the AC circuit breakers and the DC fuses. I am wondering how this camper is wired since there appear to be two fuse/circuit breaker panels?

Thanks for your continued input and opinions....I appreciate it!

[gtippett]

howson your Max PV VOC you quoted is for the 25A MPPT controller. For the 50A MPPT Controller (Furrion), the Max PV VOC is 135V.

[howson]

howson your Max PV VOC you quoted is for the 25A MPPT controller. For the 50A MPPT Controller (Furrion), the Max PV VOC is 135V.

Good catch--you're right!

[Country Campers]

Brian----are you saying that if it's left in place....it gets unplugged from the fuse/breaker panel or what's it's connected state if left in place with an inverter/charger and using the "inverter prep" circuit breakers in the Reflection? Thanks!

Dave

Yes it is left in place. The new charger/controller/inverter, what ever is used, will supply 12 v dc power which is usually hooked up to the small busbar array in the front storage of the fifth wheel. This will then send power back to the 12 v dc fuse panel inside the RV.

From your original post I would guess that installing a stand alone inverter with a automatic transfer switch will be the easiest way for you to get the power to the circuits that you need. However if you wish to power the complete rig then I would recommend the Multiplus 2, it is awesome and has everything built into one unit, converter to power the 12 v dc circuits, charger to charge the batteries, transfer switch, and inverter. It runs seamlessly.

Brian

[howson]

.....will it also provide 12 VDC real time power to my DC fuse panel or is the DC side just being fed by the battery bank and the Victron is essentially just re-charging the batteries at the same time?

Yes, absolutely. Get a SmartSolar along with the Cerbo GX and everything will work together. (I'm an unabashed Victron fanboy.) Here's my system's status as of this very moment (since my trailer is connected to the internet I can tap in to the status from my office computer):

[allenrude]

Hi all,

I am not going to comment on the solar or battery setup as you have gotten much better suggestions that I could provide. However I believe I have already gone down the same path related to inverter that you describe. While i would love to get the Multiplus as I am big on the Victron gear, my requirements were only to be able to support the outside mini-fridge and the 2 AC circuits that are in my 2022 28BH. I went with the Victron 120 VA inverter, the 30A charger, and added the Go Power 30A transfer switch. I moved the microwave off the subpanel and brought the inverter prep wires into the transfer switch. So the 120V comes into the switch on one leg of the inverter prep when on shore power passes thru to the 2nd inverter prep line that powers all the outlets so everything is powered. When we lose shore power, the transfer switch will switch over to the inverter then kicks in and only powers the circuit with the outlets on it. So the bottom line in the end i can power everything OTHER than the microwave and AC with the inverter and the other 12V only items that I have. The charger is plugged into a 120V outlet that also wired to the transfer switch on the shore power side so its on with shore power but as soon as the inverter kicks in, the charger is turned off. All works as designed. Amazing what you can do with the help from folks on this forum and YouTube.

Hope this is of some help.

Al

[howson]

allenrude -- is the Phoenix Inverter a VE.Direct model? If it has the connection I think you could tie all your Victron gear to a Cerbo GX, right? (I'm honestly not super familiar with the Phoenix gear or the setup).