Cheap Solar

[dgerfan]

We are full timers that are currently stationary due to current events and with all my free time I've been thinking about all the upgrades/improvements we can make to improve our RV. My wife has given me a budget of around 7K of which I would like to accomplish the following in the is order - adding solar, swapping out the dinette for a desk and table, upgrade to all LED tail and marker lights, adding disc brakes and installing a goose box. I won't be able to address all of these with this budget but am definitely going to tackle the solar. Would like to spend no less than 3K for at least a 600w system which might be tough as I've already dipped my toe into the lithium pool (already have one Battleborn 100Ah).

While checking the Solar forum I have noticed that most of you have used components from Victron, Magnum. Are there others that went the cheap route but are still reaping the rewards of being able to boondock? Would be interested in your input.

[howson]

We are full timers that are currently stationary due to current events and with all my free time I've been thinking about all the upgrades/improvements we can make to improve our RV. My wife has given me a budget of around 7K of which I would like to accomplish the following in the is order - adding solar, swapping out the dinette for a desk and table, upgrade to all LED tail and marker lights, adding disc brakes and installing a goose box. I won't be able to address all of these with this budget but am definitely going to tackle the solar. Would like to spend no less than 3K for at least a 600w system which might be tough as I've already dipped my toe into the lithium pool (already have one Battleborn 100Ah).

While checking the Solar forum I have noticed that most of you have used components from Victron, Magnum. Are there others that went the cheap route but are still reaping the rewards of being able to boondock? Would be interested in your input.

There are definitely folks here who can chime in. In addition, have you discovered Will Prowse's YouTube channel? He has a multitude of videos on the subject. I think there are several you'd find very helpful.

https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCoj...q8kmJme-5dnN0Q

One input if I may? Don't go "cheap" on the wire, connector hardware, or safety devices (shutoff switches, etc). Another of Will's videos explains it well:

[dgerfan]

Howard, really appreciate the response!

You make a good point about not skimping on the important things like wire, connectors, etc.. My goal is to identify an Inverter, Charge Controller and solar panels that are quality but not necessarily at a Victron, Magnum, or a Zamp level (cost). To that end I have watched a number of Will Prowse's videos, purchased his book and looked at would solar components he recommends on his web site. The issue came when I was trying to identify a way to have both sides off my 50 Amp coach live when on inverter. All the options seemed to point to either conceding to run just one side of the 50Amp or installing a sub-panel and only running certain appliance. We prefer to have all appliances and plugs available when on inverter and then manage the load appropriately so that the inverter isn't overloaded.

I scoured the internet for a solution and ended up on AM Solar's site where they showcase a ATS (they call it SPS) that's capable of running both sides however per their documentation its only tested to work with Victron and Magnum Inverters and it costs over $500.00. I was really trying to avoid spending this much on an inverter and ATS but for ease of install and to combine the Charger and Inverter roles it might be worth it. Also these inverters come with Hybrid technology that would be nice if mooch docking or in a campground with a < 50Amp service. Would be interested in hearing how others have addressed this challenge.

[howson]

Howard, really appreciate the response!

You make a good point about not skimping on the important things like wire, connectors, etc.. My goal is to identify an Inverter, Charge Controller and solar panels that are quality but not necessarily at a Victron, Magnum, or a Zamp level (cost). To that end I have watched a number of Will Prowse's videos, purchased his book and looked at would solar components he recommends on his web site. The issue came when I was trying to identify a way to have both sides off my 50 Amp coach live when on inverter. All the options seemed to point to either conceding to run just one side of the 50Amp or installing a sub-panel and only running certain appliance. We prefer to have all appliances and plugs available when on inverter and then manage the load appropriately so that the inverter isn't overloaded.

I scoured the internet for a solution and ended up on AM Solar's site where they showcase a ATS (they call it SPS) that's capable of running both sides however per their documentation its only tested to work with Victron and Magnum Inverters and it costs over $500.00. I was really trying to avoid spending this much on an inverter and ATS but for ease of install and to combine the Charger and Inverter roles it might be worth it. Also these inverters come with Hybrid technology that would be nice if mooch docking or in a campground with a < 50Amp service. Would be interested in hearing how others have addressed this challenge.

Nothing I've done is inexpensive, but you might find it interesting: https://gdrvowners.com/forum/operati...lts-f-350-mods

I have AMSolar's SPS. Here's a thread with an attachment that covers my install: https://gdrvowners.com/forum/operati...s-in-a-315rlts

Spoiler alert: The SPS is fantastic, but TucsonJim 's approach is much less expensive. Here's his thread: https://gdrvowners.com/forum/operati...ique-solutions He might be the perfect individual to converse with as he's worked through a lot of these issues without breaking the bank.

Howard

[dgerfan]

howson After much thought and pouring over your build (thanks for documenting it!) I decided to purchase the Victron Multiplus 3000 Kit with SPS from AM Solar. Unfortunately they don't have any SPSs in stock and probably won't have one heading my way for another couple of weeks. Also I have two Battleborn batteries set to arrive in a couple days - will make three in total.

In the meantime I'm looking at other install items that can be accomplished while waiting for the SPS. One question I do have is about grounding the Batteries, SPS and Charge Controller, unless I missed it I didn't see any particular information in your build documentation about it. Would appreciate if you could provide any lessons learned while grounding these components and what components did you use. Pictures would also be appreciated if possible..

[howson]

howson After much thought and pouring over your build (thanks for documenting it!) I decided to purchase the Victron Multiplus 3000 Kit with SPS from AM Solar. Unfortunately they don't have any SPSs in stock and probably won't have one heading my way for another couple of weeks. Also I have two Battleborn batteries set to arrive in a couple days - will make three in total.

In the meantime I'm looking at other install items that can be accomplished while waiting for the SPS. One question I do have is about grounding the Batteries, SPS and Charge Controller, unless I missed it I didn't see any particular information in your build documentation about it. Would appreciate if you could provide any lessons learned while grounding these components and what components did you use. Pictures would also be appreciated if possible..

First--you are very welcome. I benefited from others that have also documented their work across many systems (most notably my fellow moderators Cate&Rob and TucsonJim ). I just mimicked the example they set.

I've said it before but it needs repeating here: I'm not an engineer. If you are paying the premium to buy from AMSolar, *please* tap into the expertise you are paying for by talking with Garret. Mitchell is also super-smart. If you ever get him on the phone, pick his brain with every question you can think of!

OK, with the caveat above, what, specifically, do you mean by "grounding"? Think of a very simple DC circuit with a battery, switch, and a light. A wire comes off the negative side of the battery to the light. From the positive side of the light the wire goes to switch. From the switch back to the positive side of the battery. In this very simple circuit there isn't a "ground" per se. Turn the switch to "on" and current flows from the negative side of the battery to the light, through the switch, and back to the battery. (I don't use "conventional current flow" which is just the opposite. Apologies to the engineers here on the forum.)

In the DC circuits that are OEM in the trailer, the frame is used as a return path to the battery (or in this case "ground"). Please look at the very detailed diagram (with every single wire documented): https://gdrvowners.com/forum/operati...lts-f-350-mods If you can't zoom in enough I can upload a higher resolution version to my DropBox and send a link to you by private message (PM).

In addition, the diagram below (I believe that came from gbkims ) shows the OEM configuration which may be helpful.



Again, looking at my diagram I connected the original OEM trailer ground to the stud post. Note I removed the original WFCO converter. The other original OEM wires that were tied together (with a wire nut) near the front of the "A" frame were separated and I put a lug on them, then mounted on the stud. Then I ran a single 6ga wire (the OEM size of the 12v wiring for trailer's circuitry) to the BMV's shunt. That duplicated the original trailer wiring.

When the Battle Borns are connected to the inverter, there's no connecting to the trailer frame. The "most negative" (as Garret puts it) side of the battery bank will connect to the BMV's shunt, which then is connected to the inverter. The positive side (after going through a cutoff switch and fuse) connects to the positive side of the inverter. That's it.

Again--look at that very detailed, comprehensive diagram I posted. It shows literally everything, right down to the wire size used (per Garret's recommendations). Note the relay system connected to the SPS is my own concoction, not something from AMSolar. (Mitchell knows about it, but other than "that's interesting" I haven't gotten any other feedback.)

One caution: make sure to detail the length of wire you need when dealing with AMSolar. I didn't do that and ended up with 6/3 and 6/4 wire that was way too short given where my inverter was installed vs where the SPS and Electrical Panel are located.

[dgerfan]

howson Thanks, between your response and the diagram I understand how the DC side is grounded via the Fastronix Stud and then from it to the Trailer Frame. There are two things that I can't ascertain from your wiring diagram, (1) Do you have a ground running from the Multiplus? If so did you run it the Fastronix Stud where the DC side is grounded? I read in another forum that AC and DC should be run to different grounding points but not sure if that is correct. (2) How did you connect into the existing OEM DC wiring that originated off the OEM provided Lead Acid Battery(s)? From the diagram (created by gbkims) that you provided I now understand the OEM DC wiring however if the batteries aren't supposed to be grounded I would have to remove the ground and once I remove the OEM converter/charger (after the Multiplus is installed) how does the batteries connect into the DC side of the Distribution Panel? I did ask AM Solar and Battleborn (I purchased the BB directly from them) for diagrams however the diagrams they provided to depict how to connect into the DC side.

[howson]

howson (1) Do you have a ground running from the Multiplus? If so did you run it the Fastronix Stud where the DC side is grounded? I read in another forum that AC and DC should be run to different grounding points but not sure if that is correct.

No. At least not directly attached to the Multiplus.

The attached PDF (if you haven't seen it) is my overall diagram. (Apologies to the engineers on this forum--it's not "standard" by any means.) Note the trailer ground goes to the Fastronix, which in turn is connected to the BMV-712's shunt. The ground is for the OEM wiring and systems--not for the Multiplus' operation. The current used by the Multiplus does not travel through the trailer's frame to get back to the battery!

2020 05 20 Master Electrical Diagram Small.pdf

howson (2) How did you connect into the existing OEM DC wiring that originated off the OEM provided Lead Acid Battery(s)? From the diagram (created by gbkims) that you provided I now understand the OEM DC wiring however if the batteries aren't supposed to be grounded I would have to remove the ground and once I remove the OEM converter/charger (after the Multiplus is installed) how does the batteries connect into the DC side of the Distribution Panel? I did ask AM Solar and Battleborn (I purchased the BB directly from them) for diagrams however the diagrams they provided to depict how to connect into the DC side.

In the PDF presentation (page 7) in the install post at the previously linked https://gdrvowners.com/forum/operati...5rlts#post9164, there is a specific diagram on how I configured the DC side of the trailer. This is also incorporated into the master diagram linked above.

The original wire from the battery to the 30A self-resetting breaker was removed. I ran a new wire to the Battle Borns from the IN on Shutoff 2. I also removed the OEM Battery Disconnect and associated wiring, too, as their function was replaced with the Blue Sea (#2) shutoff. #1 shutoff was added so I could disconnect power completely.

Below is a diagram of the original wiring as found on my 315RLTS. Below it is the "New" setup. Hope it helps.



Note that the Master Diagram is more accurate--this one has not been updated since originally drawn. But it should help you compare the old to the new.

[howson]

dgerfan -- I didn't fully address the question about the Converter wiring. Honestly, I don't remember the DC side of the converter output and how it was wired into the power distribution panel.

When I looked back over my documentation the only pics I have are of the top of the converter showing the DC wires coming out. I'm fairly certain it was as easy as following them to the the distribution panel and disconnecting them. The OEM ground wires (and positive battery wire) were still attached--they were completely separate from the converter's output wiring.

The wiring diagram on the OEM box shows the wiring from the converter is separate from the battery wiring, so my memory is probably accurate (for once).



Note this information may be highly specific to my '19 315RLTS, so yours could be completely different.

[dgerfan]

howson Thanks again for the wealth of information! I'm still digesting it all but in the meantime I'll reach out to AM Solar (like you recommended) and will try to trace out the positive and negative wires from the battery to the distribution panel.

[dgerfan]

howson I finally took the time and made a wiring diagram how I envision the install. One thing I'm fuzzy about is if the catastrophic fuse should be directly in-line with the positive cable from the Multiplus or if its supposed to be positive right off the positive terminal of the battery. I have opened a case with AMSolar requesting that they provide feedback regarding the diagram.

Today I was just working on the SPS and Inverter wiring and I found that its really hard to put the AM Solar 6 ga 3 strand wire into the Multiplus strain relief valve. Any tips for getting it in?

[howson]

howson I finally took the time and made a wiring diagram how I envision the install. One thing I'm fuzzy about is if the catastrophic fuse should be directly in-line with the positive cable from the Multiplus or if its supposed to be positive right off the positive terminal of the battery. I have opened a case with AMSolar requesting that they provide feedback regarding the diagram.

Today I was just working on the SPS and Inverter wiring and I found that its really hard to put the AM Solar 6 ga 3 strand wire into the Multiplus strain relief valve. Any tips for getting it in?

Yep, it's not easy working the wiring through the Multiplus' strain relief. I remember the battle, but don't specifically remember any trick other than persistance.

I can't link to the thread on a different forum due to that forum's request, but if you google "Electrical Mod Feedback Requested howson" you should be able to find the thread where I documented, at great length, the entire project from start to finish. Post 153 (no kidding) dated 4-15-2019 has this nugget: Finally, I wrestled (literally!) with the cables to the inverter. Wow--what a royal you-know-what.

Install lesson learned: the black guides under the 6/3 AC lines unscrew and will separate from the inverter. With the guide removed it is easy to slip it over the wire. Then insert the wire into the inverter and connect the wires. Once connected, reinsert the guide. (Still not easy but trying to do it with the guides installed was close to impossible.)

The fuse should be off the positive of the battery before the Multiplus. In my schematic you'll see the positives come together on a bus bar (4/0 wires from batteries to bus bar) and then from there 2/0 wire goes to shutoff #1 (to disconnect all power), then through the fuse, then through shutoff 2 (which mimics the OEM shutoff) and then to the Multiplus.

Study the comprehensive diagram I posted and you'll see it. The only deviation from Garrett's recommendation was using the bus bar. I did that for my convenience as anything else I tried ended up being to hard (or too dangerous).

Thanks for the update--can't wait to see some pics!

Howard

[gbkims]

The attached PDF (if you haven't seen it) is my overall diagram. (Apologies to the engineers on this forum--it's not "standard" by any means.) Note the trailer ground goes to the Fastronix, which in turn is connected to the BMV-712's shunt. The ground is for the OEM wiring and systems--not for the Multiplus' operation. The current used by the Multiplus does not travel through the trailer's frame to get back to the battery!

[ATTACH]n18913[/ATTACH]]

Howard,
I can't seem to open this PDF 20200312-6 howson's Master Electrical Diagram Small.pdf, it comes up blank even though it downloads.
No problems with your other PDFs.

[howson]

Howard,
I can't seem to open this PDF 20200312-6 howson's Master Electrical Diagram Small.pdf, it comes up blank even though it downloads.
No problems with your other PDFs.

Strange. I uploaded an current version (VIAIR removed) in the original post: https://gdrvowners.com/forum/solar/1...8912#post18912

Howard

[gbkims]

Strange. I uploaded an current version (VIAIR removed) in the original post: https://gdrvowners.com/forum/solar/1...8912#post18912

Howard

Found my PDF reader (SumatraPDF) needed an update to open this PDF. 1st PDF it's had trouble rendering.