How much weight can front carry?

[Jlawles2]

I do not own a toy hauler, but from what i have been reading, it appears that the GD designers may have missed the weight mark a little on the garage (probably other mfg also but we don't hear about them here). Would be nice if when stating garage capacity, they gave a location for the weight of the cargo.

[Country Campers]

timelinex

What you are describing is called "the tail wagging the dog" and yes that is a technical term (LOL). You are feeling sway in the worse case, caused by wind or any other movement other than driving straight down the road. You will for sure need more tongue weight and maybe even less weight in the trailer. I wonder if you can take a trip without the SXS in the back to get a feel for the ride and see if it is any different. Then from there you can make adjustments when loading. I realize these are built to haul toys but the manufactures sometimes do not think beyond the drawing board so you may have to get creative.

I had a TT one time that did the same thing, traveled down the road pretty nicely until a semi passed us, we were doing about 60 he was doing about 80. The semi pulled us out to the dotted line when he got beside me, when he passed the wind shoved me towards the guard rail. I had my hand on the trailer brake slider the whole time as I learned from my dad to not use the truck brakes in this situation, things will get worse if you do. After that ride, it was 1/2 ton truck, we graduated to a 3/4 ton truck and all was well, we had too much trailer for the 1/2 ton truck.

I think you will get a handle on this it will just take a little experimenting.

Brian

[timelinex]

Are you experiencing sway or similar when towing that tells you your pin weight is too light?
I know that the "history" of 5th wheel trailers is that pin weight should be 20% or more . . . but I have never seen any test data to substantiate this.

There is test data that shows that a trailer becomes unstable with less than 10% of total trailer weight on the hitch.
Truck manufacturers typically calculate maximum gooseneck trailer weight using a 15% pin weight.
Several 5th wheel RV manufacturers (including Grand Design) are pushing the pin weights of their smaller 5th wheels below 20% to make them "half ton towable".

I don't think a trailer knows whether it is being pulled by an attachment point at the bumper or over the axle of the tow vehicle . . . which would indicate that greater than 10% of trailer weight on the hitch/pin should result in a stable tow.

I would be interested in any data or experience that demonstrates that a 5th wheel trailer needs more weight on the tow point than a bumper pull trailer, to remain stable.

Rob

I am not experienced with trailering/RV dialect enough to give you an exact word that describes it. It just feels a bit floaty and like things very easily disrupt the balance of the system. I'm not feeling actual unprovoked sway the entire time or anything like that. Besides external forces (like a semi passing) it also feels like any action I take gets very exaggerated too. I can compare this to towing a 10k trailer with my tundra, which maxed out my GVWR. I would feel sway when a semi passed and I would feel repercussions from big bumps. HOWEVER, other than that felt like a freight train and even if I DID go to 75-80 (which I avoided), it felt solid. So maybe the best way to describe it is that I felt like (maybe correctly or incorrectly) I had to be hyper aware the entire time versus a normal amount of awareness during towing.

I had to apply the trailer brakes manually twice during my 3hr round trip. Once after a semi passed at a high speed and the second time was when I drifted in the lane just a bit and corrected. Correcting back introduced some uneasy sway. Again, I don't have enough experience to tell you if it was actually needed, but I felt the rear end step out of line a little and start to oscillate so I reacted immediately to that to nip it in the but.

[Cate&Rob]

19k trailer, 2,660 pin. With a ~14% pin weight, I have no doubt in my mind it is too light!

Are you experiencing sway or similar when towing that tells you your pin weight is too light?
I know that the "history" of 5th wheel trailers is that pin weight should be 20% or more . . . but I have never seen any test data to substantiate this.

There is test data that shows that a trailer becomes unstable with less than 10% of total trailer weight on the hitch.
Truck manufacturers typically calculate maximum gooseneck trailer weight using a 15% pin weight.
Several 5th wheel RV manufacturers (including Grand Design) are pushing the pin weights of their smaller 5th wheels below 20% to make them "half ton towable".

I don't think a trailer knows whether it is being pulled by an attachment point at the bumper or over the axle of the tow vehicle . . . which would indicate that greater than 10% of trailer weight on the hitch/pin should result in a stable tow.

I would be interested in any data or experience that demonstrates that a 5th wheel trailer needs more weight on the tow point than a bumper pull trailer, to remain stable.

Rob

[TucsonJim]

19k trailer, 2,660 pin. With a ~14% pin weight, I have no doubt in my mind it is too light!

This includes everything everywhere except the family in the car. With those weights I have 1k left of tow capacity and 1,120# of payload. My family is <400#, so that leaves us with 700# of more payload to work with.

Awesome job! Happy trails.

Jim

[timelinex]

Interesting thread Timelinex. I'm curious if you have weights for your overall trailer and your pin weight? Why do you think it's too light? Another point to consider.. If you add 400-600 pounds of pin weight, will it cause your tow vehicle to exceed it's rear axle weight rating, payload rating, or gross vehicle weight rating?

Jim

Jim

19k trailer, 2,660 pin. With a ~14% pin weight, I have no doubt in my mind it is too light!

This includes everything everywhere except the family in the car. With those weights I have 1k left of tow capacity and 1,120# of payload. My family is <400#, so that leaves us with 700# of more payload to work with.

[TucsonJim]

I have a 2021 381m that is too light on the pin. I am planning on adding weights (like bags of sand) to the front compartment. On top of the generator housing would be a good/convenient place to place a few. On othe other hand I wouldn't want it bending the metal. Is there a max amount that I should put on there? I attached picture for reference.

Interesting thread Timelinex. I'm curious if you have weights for your overall trailer and your pin weight? Why do you think it's too light? Another point to consider.. If you add 400-600 pounds of pin weight, will it cause your tow vehicle to exceed it's rear axle weight rating, payload rating, or gross vehicle weight rating?

Jim

Jim

[JBill9694]

Talked to SWMBO about this thread and her response was that timelinex needs to have his DW go shopping for items to stow in the nose, LOL. Seriously, I would do more measuring and weighing before moving the axels. I would want to know what the weights are, including the pin weight, without the toy in the back, I would want to know distances from pin to center axel and from Center of Mass of the toy to the center axel. Then I could do some basic load distribution and see if moving the axels back a few inches would give me the weight on the pin that I'm looking for. I also have to wonder why if moving the axels back a few inches solves the issue then why isn't GD doing this already?

[Jlawles2]

Most expensive option and keeping the wheels in the same spot would be to see if someone makes a leading arm torsion axle. This puts the support behind the axle and essentially acts as moving the axles back due to the mounting of the axle.

[timelinex]

Moving the axles back would be great, but I'd think you'd need to cut the sides of the trailer to make new wheel wells too right?

Hmmmmmm, good point. Unfortunately I didn't ask this specifically, but I did ask what would be involved and he said it is likely a $1,500 job as all they have to do is buy new hangers, grind off old ones, paint and install new ones. (Summary off top of my head). I wonder if that is why he said few inches, as there may be room in the wheel well for that.

[ncitro]

OK, so talked to GD today. The guy said that while they don't have testing data so there are no guarantees, that I should have absolutely no issues putting weight in there. He said thousands of people do similar and he's never heard anyone ever have any issues with it. But as a side note, he did recommend that the best option to increase tongue weight is just to pay to move the axles a few inches back.

Moving the axles back would be great, but I'd think you'd need to cut the sides of the trailer to make new wheel wells too right?

[timelinex]

OK, so talked to GD today. The guy said that while they don't have testing data so there are no guarantees, that I should have absolutely no issues putting weight in there. He said thousands of people do similar and he's never heard anyone ever have any issues with it. But as a side note, he did recommend that the best option to increase tongue weight is just to pay to move the axles a few inches back.

[Jlawles2]

As far as I know LCI puts the RPO sticker on the pin box connector plates. Not always driver side, but always on the vertical plates. On the previous 5er was on the passenger side.

Not a GD, but still shows the sticker.

[timelinex]

timelinex ... this one may be a best to consult with GD Customer Service. The bedroom is on an upper platform of what I think is a drop frame configuration (not exactly sure of the name). The reason for my caution is I've seen (on other manufacturer's trailer's) cracks on the outside of the walls due to excessive flex between the front section and rear section of a drop-frame trailer.

The first two minutes of the video below show a typical setup.

An opinion from a random guy on the internet (me): since the under-bed storage is not in a Schwintek slide (situation in my 315RLTS) as long as total trailer's GVWR does not exceed the trailer's rating...I don't see a problem with your plan.

The other resource besides GD that you can consult is Lippert, the frame's OEM. Somewhere on your 5th wheel frame is a white sticker with an "RPO" designation. ( Country Campers or ncitro -- any idea where that sticker is on a 5vr?) You can call Lippert and ask if the concentration of that much weight in that location will have a negative affect. The pic below is my 315's RPO sticker as an example.

If an RPO is new to you--it's the system Lippert uses on all of their products to specifically identify what it is. Very important info to have when calling Lippert about any of their products (Schwintek slides, windows, doors...everything!)

You are a wealth of knowledge as usual!

I called GD customer service TWICE today about this and a few other things and after 20 minutes on hold they disconnected the call both times saying (prerecorded) they are too busy and I can leave a message if I want but can't stay on hold. Not too happy about it, but I will call back later today again. I don't trust them to call me back same day when they can't even keep up with phone calls as is.

[JBill9694]

FWIW, we carry all our important papers (full timers and SWMBO won't transition to full digital) on the raised deck where timelinex table is stored, which I believe is directly over the pin box. Haven't actually weighed all the paper but I'm confident that all that paper is helping us keep our pin weight at 18%.