Does Your EMS Shut Down When Running On a Generator?

[Dcn. Tom]

I just purchased a Honda Eu2200i and the Owners Manual says, "The generator (stator winding) is isolated from the frame and from the AC receptacle ground pin. Electrical devices that require a grounded receptacle pin connection will not function if the receptacle ground pin in not functional." Not being an electrician does that mean I need to use one of the grounding/bonding plugs that TucsonJim talked about? There is a Ground Terminal on the front of the unit, but not sure what I would need it for. Any and all thoughts would be appreciated.

[ncitro]

I just purchased a Honda Eu2200i and the Owners Manual says, "The generator (stator winding) is isolated from the frame and from the AC receptacle ground pin. Electrical devices that require a grounded receptacle pin connection will not function if the receptacle ground pin in not functional." Not being an electrician does that mean I need to use one of the grounding/bonding plugs that TucsonJim talked about? There is a Ground Terminal on the front of the unit, but not sure what I would need it for. Any and all thoughts would be appreciated.

Yes if you have a EMS protecting your rig you would need a bonding plug.

[Dcn. Tom]

I have a 2021 Imagine 22MLE. Not sure if it has an EMS. Should I assume that the Owner's manual will tell me if I have one? Thanks for your feedback. Tom

[ncitro]

I have a 2021 Imagine 22MLE. Not sure if it has an EMS. Should I assume that the Owner's manual will tell me if I have one? Thanks for your feedback. Tom

An EMS is an option you add. It protects your rig from low voltage and other power issues in campgrounds. If you haven’t added one then you probably don’t have one (although you might want to consider it) and no neutral bonding plug will be needed.

[howson]

ncitro

While not needed to make an EMS "happy", why wouldn't a bonding plug still be a good idea (have the neutral bonded with a plug at the generator) so it becomes the "first disconnect means" as explained in the video linked in post 12?

Let me hasten to add I'm asking because I am far from an expert on the topic--and if the EMS is looking for it isn't there a reason? Hopefully you or one of the other electrical types can expand on the rationale one way or the other.

[ncitro]

ncitro

While not needed to make an EMS "happy", why wouldn't a bonding plug still be a good idea (have the neutral bonded with a plug at the generator) so it becomes the "first disconnect means" as explained in the video linked in post 12?

Let me hasten to add I'm asking because I am far from an expert on the topic--and if the EMS is looking for it isn't there a reason? Hopefully you or one of the other electrical types can expand on the rationale one way or the other.

So I may have spoken out of turn, I was simply stating that with no EMS it would not be required. As far as a good idea or not, well I’ve always assumed there was a reason generator’s were designed with a floating neutral, and figured since they don’t even give you an option to bond it (without adding doing it yourself either via a rewire or bonding plug) that there would be no harm in using it that way. Hopefully someone with more knowledge than me will weigh in.

[howson]

So I may have spoken out of turn, I was simply stating that with no EMS it would not be required. As far as a good idea or not, well I’ve always assumed there was a reason generator’s were designed with a floating neutral, and figured since they don’t even give you an option to bond it (without adding doing it yourself either via a rewire or bonding plug) that there would be no harm in using it that way. Hopefully someone with more knowledge than me will weigh in.

Yep, that would be my assumption, too. It's the why that has me curious. Why is it OK to not have the neutral and ground bonded from a generator (source of power) but the two wires are bonded from a campground's pedestal (source of power)?

Mike Sokol's article RV Electricity – Generator neutral bonding basics talks a lot about the subject of the generator issue, but doesn't delve deeply into my question. Another google search ("RV Electricity unbonded danger") revealed hundreds of threads on the topic of bonded vs unbonded--I didn't realize it was such a debated subject.

I do, however, find it interesting that onboard generators are bonded through the transfer switch when in operation and our Victron Multiplus' bond the neutral and ground when inverting...but it's OK to run an external generator without the bonding. ???

My conclusion is it's one of those "scratch your head" topics that is just fun for electrical wizards to debate. Obviously people run their RVs all the time with an external generator without a bonding plug and their rig doesn't spontaneously vaporize...

Howard

[TedS]

If you do not use a n-g bond plug on a portable generator will the rv gfci receptacles work as the are supposed to work, i.e. interupt in the event of a ground fault? Without a n-g plug there will be no current path in the ground wire and the gfci will not detect the difference in current between the hot and neutral if there is a short to ground in the rv. Without current in the ground wire there would be no risk of shock with the floating neutral but the gfci may not work.

[howson]

TedS -- even that GFCI issue was hotly debated in different threads I read on other forums!

[gbkims]

Portable Generators with/without Bond to Neutral is a hard to wrap my head around, like why are companies allowed to build them that way.
The standards seemed to have different views about it.
ANSI/PGMA G300-2018 Safety and Performance of Portable Generators
ANSI/UL 2201 Mitigates Carbon Monoxide (CO) Poisoning for Portable Generators
NEC 250.34 Portable, Vehicle-Mounted, and Trailer-Mounted Generators
OSHA https://www.osha.gov/laws-regs/regul.../1926/1926.404

The most interesting and in depth site I found was Guy Holt's Local 481 GFCI Workshop - http://www.screenlightandgrip.com/ht..._Workshop.html
GFCI: Grounded Neutral Fault Detection Circuit.

Portable Generators - Half way down - (took me awhile to read that far)
Power Source Types: Floating Neutral generators, Bonded Neutral generators.

Systems Grounding and Equipment Grounding
Floating Neutrals vs. Bonded Neutrals, Floating Grounds vs Earth Grounds,

Portable Generators in Motion Picture Production - http://www.screenlightandgrip.com/ht...enerators.html

Older explanation of why <5kW portable generators don't have GFCI outlets
Portable Generators and OSHA Construction Regulations -
http://www.arrl.org/files/file/Techn...3-05%20(1).pdf

edit: Texas' electricity grid problems have me keenly interested in standby generators connections.

[S&M_G]

TucsonJimCate&Rob

Rob,
I'm told Jim's out of town...might you be able to offer any ideas on this??
Matt


Jim,
Couple questions hoping you can help with. Just bought a Champion 4500w dual fuel portable generator, model #200991.

Why would plugging in a home made bonding plug cause the generator to go into "Overload" and remove power output?
Do these require the brass grounding rod in the ground with wire to generator to operate?
(Thats what Champion told me on the phone)
I thought the "Bonding Plug" was used instead of the grounding rod & to allow power to pass through the EPO.

Manual states it has the "Neutral Floating", which is typical of these.
Started first try, warmed up for 5 minutes, but when I plug my "Bonding Plug" into the 20amp outlet the generator goes into "overload". Remove the bonding plug, reset the overload button and power output returns to normal, 120vac.

Will not work with my Hughes Autotransformer EPO connected. The EPO faults, as it should due to floating neutral, & doesn't let power apply.

When connected to rv directly from generator the power connects and will power the RV, EXCEPT the GFCI outlets will not work. Again, this is normal right?

I verified the bonding plug was wired correctly twice & had my neighbor verify too. Jumper from WHITE to GREEN (Neutral to Ground)
Could I have a bad plug? Its brand new.

Any ideas????

Appreciate any help,
Matt

btw...boy is the new 4500w model quiet and it ran my 13.5k A/C without an issue so really hoping this is an easy correction..

[Canyonlight]

TucsonJim
Jim,
Couple questions hoping you can help with. Just bought a Champion 4500w dual fuel portable generator, model #200991.

Why would plugging in a home made bonding plug cause the generator to go into "Overload" and remove power output?
Do these require the brass grounding rod in the ground with wire to generator to operate?
(Thats what Champion told me on the phone)
I thought the "Bonding Plug" was used instead of the grounding rod & to allow power to pass through the EPO.

Manual states it has the "Neutral Floating", which is typical of these.
Started first try, warmed up for 5 minutes, but when I plug my "Bonding Plug" into the 20amp outlet the generator goes into "overload". Remove the bonding plug, reset the overload button and power output returns to normal, 120vac.

Will not work with my Hughes Autotransformer EPO connected. The EPO faults, as it should due to floating neutral, & doesn't let power apply.

When connected to rv directly from generator the power connects and will power the RV, EXCEPT the GFCI outlets will not work. Again, this is normal right?

I verified the bonding plug was wired correctly twice & had my neighbor verify too. Jumper from WHITE to GREEN (Neutral to Ground)
Could I have a bad plug? Its brand new.

Any ideas????

Appreciate any help,
Matt

btw...boy is the new 4500w model quiet and it ran my 13.5k A/C without an issue so really hoping this is an easy correction.

Matt - Jim shared in a forum thread a few days ago that he will be /is now hunting more big game in northern AZ for about a couple weeks. He will be boon docking with no or very limited cell or internet service thus not active or on at all on the forum for that period.

Just wanted to share this if you were not aware in case Jim does not get back with you for sometume.

Dan

[S&M_G]

Matt - Jim shared in a forum thread a few days ago that he will be /is now hunting more big game in northern AZ for about a couple weeks. He will be boon docking with no or very limited cell or internet service thus not active or on at all on the forum for that period.

Just wanted to share this if you were not aware in case Jim does not get back with you for sometume.

Dan

Thanks Dan!

[ncitro]

Thanks Dan!

That's strange behavior for sure, I've got the little brother to yours, the 3500 watt dual fuel and have no such issue. If it's tripping the overload I'd think the bonding plug was wired wrong and it was shorting the hot, but it sounds like you've checked that several times. I'd suggest checking the outlet on the generator to make sure it's not accidentally wired backwards, maybe they've got the polarity reversed somehow.

[S&M_G]

That's strange behavior for sure, I've got the little brother to yours, the 3500 watt dual fuel and have no such issue. If it's tripping the overload I'd think the bonding plug was wired wrong and it was shorting the hot, but it sounds like you've checked that several times. I'd suggest checking the outlet on the generator to make sure it's not accidentally wired backwards, maybe they've got the polarity reversed somehow.

Thanks Neil.
I'm on the phone with Champion again, but likely will have to do as you suggested. I just read a Mike Sokol article online & he said some of the Chinese ones "...don’t have a floating neutral, nor do they have a bonded neutral. Instead they make 60-volts AC on the hot wire, and 60-volts AC on the neutral wire. Sorry, but I don’t have a fix for that one.".
That should be easy to check with a multi-meter.
Champion Manual says "Floating Neutral" and Champion says generator is grounded to frame inside...interesting for sure. I'm going to try a second brand new bonding plug, as maybe I got a bad plug. No idea...