Smart Phase Selector Hum (Impending Failure?)

[howson]

On the last trip I noticed a "hum" coming from the hutch area. Dug into it today and discovered it's the AMSolar Smart Phase Selector.

Once I had the cover off I was shocked to discover the mounts inside were cracked and failing.



The relay on the right was the humming culprit. Typically the hum from a relay is a contact issue (I've ran across similar failures on a sprinkler water pump setup).

As I've mentioned in other posts, I realized after real-world use (and the upgrade to a residential refrigerator) that I don't need power to both 50A legs when running on the inverter...so I ripped out the SPS, the solid state relays and Tow/Shore mode switch and all related wiring. In 30 minutes I pulled out what probably represents over 100 hours of research, planning and installation. <sigh>

I also rearranged the circuit breakers so that the circuits that I want powered by the inverter are on the lower leg and non-critical are on the upper leg. I'll post pics later in another post once I get done updating the panel diagrams in my notes. I'm also updating my Master Diagram and will update that, too, in it's thread.

Howard

[ncitro]

On the last trip I noticed a "hum" coming from the hutch area. Dug into it today and discovered it's the AMSolar Smart Phase Selector.

Once I had the cover off I was shocked to discover the mounts inside were cracked and failing.



The relay on the right was the humming culprit. Typically the hum from a relay is a contact issue (I've ran across similar failures on a sprinkler water pump setup).

As I've mentioned in other posts, I realized after real-world use (and the upgrade to a residential refrigerator) that I don't need power to both 50A legs when running on the inverter...so I ripped out the SPS, the solid state relays and Tow/Shore mode switch and all related wiring. In 30 minutes I pulled out what probably represents over 100 hours of research, planning and installation. <sigh>

I also rearranged the circuit breakers so that the circuits that I want powered by the inverter are on the lower leg and non-critical are on the upper leg. I'll post pics later in another post once I get done updating the panel diagrams in my notes. I'm also updating my Master Diagram and will update that, too, in it's thread.

Howard

Sucks to have wasted the time but I think you’ll be happy. That’s how mine is wired up, only trick is if I’m running something on the other side of the panel (backup 100 amp charger or fireplace is really all that’s there on mine) it’s not figured into power assist.

[steve&renee]

... I also rearranged the circuit breakers so that the circuits that I want powered by the inverter are on the lower leg and non-critical are on the upper leg...

I'm still a fan of installing a sub-panel to power all the inverter loads. Just seems conceptually simpler to me. I also wired in a manual transfer switch (from Safe RV Power) for the 2nd AC and fireplace. That way, if the campground has 30 amp service and 20 amp service at the pole, I can run both AC's all night long. No longer dependent on 50 amp service very often.

-Steve

[howson]

I'm still a fan of installing a sub-panel to power all the inverter loads. Just seems conceptually simpler to me. I also wired in a manual transfer switch (from Safe RV Power) for the 2nd AC and fireplace. That way, if the campground has 30 amp service and 20 amp service at the pole, I can run both AC's all night long. No longer dependent on 50 amp service very often.

-Steve

The Smart Phase Selector is a cool piece of technology, but I'm not a fan of mechanical relays for the exact reason I just experienced. Given it's short life, I can no longer recommend the SPS as an option. I'm still surprised at the structural failure. Maybe the OEM didn't anticipate the pounding a device is subjected to in an RV environment?

I agree with your assessment, Steve, though a sub-panel is not necessary IMO with the Victron since it has a built-in transfer switch. One half of the circuit breaker panel effectively is the "sub-panel". The downside is the Victron must be on or 120vAC will not pass to the breaker panel, shore power included.

Can you sketch out the manual switch you're using in a diagram? Is it like Jim's TucsonJim ? I'll have to dig up his thread later at work and see if I can figure it out.

Maybe I'm missing something, but when using a 30-50A adapter doesn't that tie the two legs together entering the camper (so both legs "see" the 30 amp connection)? I don't understand how you're isolating the 20A connection from the pedestal to the other leg. Does the pedestal 30A and 20A share the same neutral?

Definitely not satisfied with how I have it now--I can see issues when plugging in to a 30A service since the Victron won't "see" the living room air conditioner running like it did with the Smart Phase Selector (on less than a 50A service).

Here's a comparison of the old vs new circuit breaker configuration.

OEM



As of today

Surely the first thing the critical reviewers will see is L1 went from 4ea 15A and 1ea 20A breakers to 5ea 15A and 1ea 20A breakers (added one 15A breaker). This was unavoidable due to the camper's wiring.

I moved the Dryer circuit to the inverter to keep the Winegard (WiFi) powered if on battery power.

I moved the Washer circuit, too, as the hutch outlets in the kitchen are on that circuit. (Why...why...why?) The DW makes coffee using these outlets, so they are critical!

Note that at some point I'm going to isolate the dryer and tie it into the "Not Used" breaker on L2, or move the Bedroom TV from the dryer circuit to the Washer Circuit and then move the Dryer to the L2 side. Why the heck GD put the bedroom TV on the dryer circuit blows my mind.

[ncitro]

howson I’ve got less circuits than you so it’s less of an issue, but both my AC units on the inverter phase. The only thing on the non inverter phase is my fireplace, stock converter (turned off) and a 100 amp converter I added but keep turned off unless I need to charge quickly for some reason. I can say that even running both AC unit’s and having the fridge and other “normal” loads on I’m well below 50 amps (I don’t run the microwave while both AC units are on). This keeps my Victron display fairly accurate and my power assist works fairly accurately. I’m also helped that the Truma does not have an electric mode, so no breaker needed there, and I don’t have a W/D.

[howson]

TucsonJim , ncitro, @steve&renee, and of course fellow Forum Members,

Jim,
I dug into your Inverter, Transfer Switch, and Breaker Panel Modifications - Unique Solutions at https://gdrvowners.com/forum/operati...ique-solutions and read (and re-read) the PDF documenting the manual switch for your inverter. Since my setup works differently than yours, I reworked the schematic to see if it would work for me. I think it will. Will you please take a critical look at these three schematics and provide feedback?

Neil--appreciate your input, too. And any others that may have an input, of course it will be most welcome. (If you see this, Gene, you know I want your .02!) gbkims

Thank you in advance!

Howard

Edit: For those that may not know, the Multiplus has a built-on automatic transfer switch that either passes 120v shore power (when available) or generates it's own 120vAC from battery power. It does this switch automatically and nearly instanteously.

[bertschb]

I'm sorry to hear about your problems with the Smart Phase Selector Howard. I wonder if this is why AM Solar is redesigning it? Regardless, I hope you find a solution that works well for you.

[gbkims]

TucsonJim , ncitro, @steve&renee, and of course fellow Forum Members,

Jim,
I dug into your Inverter, Transfer Switch, and Breaker Panel Modifications - Unique Solutions at https://gdrvowners.com/forum/operati...ique-solutions and read (and re-read) the PDF documenting the manual switch for your inverter. Since my setup works differently than yours, I reworked the schematic to see if it would work for me. I think it will. Will you please take a critical look at these three schematics and provide feedback?

Neil--appreciate your input, too. And any others that may have an input, of course it will be most welcome. (If you see this, Gene, you know I want your .02!) gbkims

Thank you in advance!

Howard

Howard,

I'm thinking I'll use a switch like https://mortonsonthemove.com/solar-p...-the-inverter/ did for a MP-12-3000
I drew up something based off of that
It's a bit like what you're looking at.

Multiplus 12-3000-50 w MTS for Bypass-Inverter &amp; Charging.pdf

[howson]

gbkims
Yours is much fancier, Gene! But it appears to validate what I cobbled together using PowerPoint (at work). Thanks for the feedback and parts list. I'll check out Morton's website, too (he normally has really good information).

Howard

[howson]

gbkims

Is it OK to not have the neutral from the Multiplus' output connected when in Shore mode? (Shore mode will connect the neutral between pins 7 and 8. The neutral output of the inverter is on pin 5.)

I realize the input side is connected...but why not the output? I must have changed the Neutral configuration a dozen times when I put together my drawing, so that's what drew my attention. I know conceptually how a neutral works but not 100% sure how it is supposed to be connected in this scenario.

[ncitro]

I have a simple metal junction box bringing together all my so cords:

Shore cord
Inverter in
Inverter out
Distribution panel

I break out the four wires in the shore cord. I tie all the ground together to the case of the box. I also tie all the neutrals together (not tied to the box or the grounds). One phase from the shore cord goes directly to the non-inverted side of the distribution panel. The other phase goes to the inverter in. The inverter out gets tied to the other side of the distribution panel. This system works flawlessly for me with no switches however it does not allow me to run the other side of my panel on the inverter. I wrestled a ton with the neutrals, but found a reference on the Victron boards that this was acceptable.

The only caveat I have is I do find when connected to a dog bone adapter and a shore connection that has a GFI (such as an outlet in my garage) it trips the GFI. I haven’t had to do this enough to be Anne to troubleshoot if it’s my dog bone or an issue with the neutrals. I suspect it might be due to the power assist and my tying the neutrals together. It’s creating an imbalance between the hot and the neutral in the shore outlet. Again this is just a guess, it could be my dog bone. If I think of it, we’ll be stationary this week and I’m try to test it some, but I’m rarely ever plugged into a GFI shore outlet.

[Jlawles2]

howson Howard, as stated, all grounds and neutrals are shared in single phase power systems.

If trying to run 30A and 20A from a power pole to get 50A into the unit on a single leg, I would be extremely cautious and verify that the the 30A and 20A are on the same hot leg, otherwise you get 240V direct short.

I could see running the 30A leg to the "primary" power in the unit, and the 20A for the "secondary" power in the unit.

I'm a bit curious on your breaker panel in the way its split. Normally the breakers are on an A B A B... layout, but it looks like yours are AAAABBBB. Quite interesting.

[howson]

howson Howard, as stated, all grounds and neutrals are shared in single phase power systems.

If trying to run 30A and 20A from a power pole to get 50A into the unit on a single leg, I would be extremely cautious and verify that the the 30A and 20A are on the same hot leg, otherwise you get 240V direct short.

I could see running the 30A leg to the "primary" power in the unit, and the 20A for the "secondary" power in the unit.

I'm a bit curious on your breaker panel in the way its split. Normally the breakers are on an A B A B... layout, but it looks like yours are AAAABBBB. Quite interesting.

Couple of issues in one post...but that's my fault. I'll address each issue in separate responses.

Before I start, let me emphasize this response is more for me as I wrestle with understanding the implications of a given configuration. It's not about what's "right" or "wrong" or which one is "better"--everyone has their own list of requirements, needs, and preferences.

gbkims , this first response is mostly to you but also to Joseph, Neil, Jim and others who may chime in...

Grounds, Neutrals, and the Drawing (referencing posts 8, 9, 10 and 11)

I understand that the grounds and neutrals are all shared in a single phase system. My question, based on the drawing provided in post 8, is if it's OK for the Victron to not have it's output neutral connected when the switch is engaged to shore power. Looking at the drawing again (fresh eyes in the morning) I'm seeing it differently--the Victron's inverter output is not connected to the loadswhen the switch is set to Shore.

I took the liberty of modifying the drawing attached to the post to show Shore engaged. Look closely at pins 9, 5, and 1 and it's obvious that the output of the Multiplus stops here when on Shore. The charger function in the Victron will work, but the inverter will not.

This won't work for me since I rely on the inverter to supply power to the bedroom air conditioner if there's a loss of shore power when we're away from the camper and the fur kids are in their kennels. It also means if shore power is lost that the residential refrigerator will lose power. If we're away for any length of time, the food will spoil.



The configuration below is different since the Victron's pass-thru capability is utilized when on shore power. If shore power is lost, the Victron immediately switches to Inverter mode and provides power to loads on the black 50A line. That's why non-critical loads must be on the red hot line with a manual switch configuration.


When set to Inverter the two drawings respond the same with or without shore power since the Victron's pass-thru is utilized (if 15, 20 or 30A shore power is available). The Victron's Power Assist will add an additional 25A if required.

[howson]

If trying to run 30A and 20A from a power pole to get 50A into the unit on a single leg, I would be extremely cautious and verify that the the 30A and 20A are on the same hot leg, otherwise you get 240V direct short.

I honestly don't understand how steve&renee is accomplishing this in his camper. I've never done it as I don't know how! Probably my ignorance--I hope he'll post a diagram showing how this is done.

[howson]

I'm a bit curious on your breaker panel in the way its split. Normally the breakers are on an A B A B... layout, but it looks like yours are AAAABBBB. Quite interesting.

Again, my ignorance is on display for all to read. I know zippidee doo da about A B A B vs AAAABBBB.

All I know is the breakers under L2 (post 4) are all powered off the Red 50A wire going into the Power Distribution Center (which goes into the top 50A breaker) and the breakers marked as L1 (black input wire) power all the lower breakers. The lower breakers are what I reference as critical loads (or loads I want the inverter to power in the event of the loss of shore power) and the upper breakers are the non-critical loads.