Furrion Tankless Waterfall... I mean Water Heater

[NCW_Wander]

We've been RVing for a couple of years. We upgraded from a low-tier bumper-pull to a GD 31MB (5th Wheel). I'm still relatively ignorant to a lot of things-RV. When we took possession of the trailer in December (2021), I assumed that it wouldn't need to be winterized right out of the box, especially since it's already winter. The trailer sat parked for two months as soon as I pulled it home. The RV dealer installed the gooseneck and only hand-tightened the bolts. So, I had to fight with the dealer to get my truck fixed (still battling). As soon as I got the hitch fixed though, I went to get the trailer ready for a ski-trip. There was no anti-freeze in it, and when I hit the system with some water pressure, water started gushing out of the water heater. I couldn't see where it was coming from. I still don't know EXACTLY what's ruptured. I'm assuming that they sent me home with water throughout the entire system and it froze (we've been in the teens and twenties for most of Dec & Jan). I haven't found any other water issues. I bypassed the water heater and used the trailer for the better part of a week (cold showers aren't my favorite after a long day on the ski slopes).

I have a few questions if you don't mind:

The Service Department told me "tough luck, you're not covered for freeze damage." Do I chalk this up to ignorance and just get it fixed, or do I have some recourse? The MSRP Detail that was in the trailer lists "Winterization" as one of the add-ons. The dealer said this means "On the valves in your wet bay it would have a winterization setting and an inlet to hook up a small hose, stick in a jug of winterization fluid and draw it into the system" and not that the trailer would come winterized. Still seems odd to me that they would send someone home with a brand new trailer full of water in the middle of winter (I guess I shouldn't be too surprised after the hitch fiasco).

If it isn't just a simple fix and I need to replace the entire unit, does anyone know if the Truma is a one-for-one replacement with the Furrion? Any other brands you might recommend? Based on some of the other discussions here, I'm not sure if Furrion is a good fit for us since we do a lot of winter boondocking.

Ignorance isn't all that blissful!

Thanks in advance

[Country Campers]

About the only thing I can say is that all Grand Design units built and delivered between October 1 and April or May 1 will come from the factory already winterized, meaning it is flushed and filled with RV antifreeze, they do not fill the water heater. When arriving at the dealer it is suppose to go thru another PDI by the dealer which means they are suppose to check all systems including the plumbing after that check they should winterize it again. Even if the unit is sold in the winter months they should show or test the plumbing system to make sure there is no issues and then winterize it again. That all being said it should have been winterized when you took possession of it. If you used water in the RV after you left the dealer then you would be liable for any freeze damage that may have resulted. After the freeze and leaks that you describe if you did not see any antifreeze then you should contact the dealer and have them look at it, it may be to late for that now. It also may just come down to you against the dealer unfortunately.

Being as you took it out on a trip after the freeze damage it will be hard to prove that it was not winterized correctly. I am not staing that you did the damage but this will be the thoughts of your dealer.

Brian

[ncitro]

Sorry to hear about your situation, I agree this would come down to your against the dealer.

As far as the Truma, I would think it should drop right it but call them and ask. I had them do my install at the factory (not far from my home) as they do not sell to consumers, it's only sold installed. I had several questions before I bought and they were very helpful. Mine replaced a Atwood/Dometic but I'd be shocked if they didn't all use the same size opening.

[Cate&Rob]

The good news is that since you were able to use the water system without the water heater, nothing else was damaged by the freezing. I think you are going to have to replace the water heater . . . but, this gives you the option of installing a “traditional” tank style water heater which can operate on either gas or electric. I would be giving that dealer a “wide berth”. If you need warranty service work, Grand Design has alternatives for working through independent service providers for when the situation with the selling dealer is no longer viable. Talk to their Customer Service and explain why.

Rob

[Jlawles2]

NCW_Wander You might want to check out that HWH to see if some overly intelligent "TECH" (glorified parts changer) left the drain cap or filter off the HWH at the dealer. Was the water leak external (leaking out the door) or internal (inside the camper)?

In this picture on the right hand side under the white knob, the black cap is the filter, and the brass knurled long thing is the drain. https://f01.justanswer.com/BillP310/...ter_heater.jpg I don't know where the silicone tube comes from, but I suspect it's from a T&P type valve in the back that could be bad.

Post 9 has some nice pictures of the inside of the unit. https://gdrvowners.com/forum/operati...s-water-heater

[JBill9694]

If further investigation determines that the WH needs to be replaced and NCW_Wander wants to stay with the tankless consider a Nautilus IW60 which had built in freeze protection for those ski trips. Like Neil indicated for the Furrion, the Nautilus has to go through a dealer or qualified technician. No DYI install.

[NCW_Wander]

NCW_Wander You might want to check out that HWH to see if some overly intelligent "TECH" (glorified parts changer) left the drain cap or filter off the HWH at the dealer. Was the water leak external (leaking out the door) or internal (inside the camper)?

In this picture on the right hand side under the white knob, the black cap is the filter, and the brass knurled long thing is the drain. https://f01.justanswer.com/BillP310/...ter_heater.jpg I don't know where the silicone tube comes from, but I suspect it's from a T&P type valve in the back that could be bad.

Post 9 has some nice pictures of the inside of the unit. https://gdrvowners.com/forum/operati...s-water-heater

The drain plug and filter are intact. That was one of the first things I opened to check for anti-freeze. The water is flowing from behind the plate that the black Controller Unit is attached to. It cascades pretty good out the door when I turn the water pump on. I suspect that it's coming from the copper in the back of the unit. Luckily, it all flows out the heater door instead of flooding the belly of the trailer.

It seems like I should be able to tear this thing apart and replace whatever's blown... but I don't think that they sell individual parts for the unit outside of say drain plugs, filters, and controller units, etc.

[TucsonJim]

Phil,

I sent you a private message. Please check it out and respond when you get a chance.

Jim

[Cate&Rob]

It seems like I should be able to tear this thing apart and replace whatever's blown... but I don't think that they sell individual parts for the unit outside of say drain plugs, filters, and controller units, etc.

Furrion does not a have a very good reputation for supplying service parts for any of their products. However, if the problem is a split tube or blown gasket you may be able to fabricate a repair part.

Rob

[ncitro]

The drain plug and filter are intact. That was one of the first things I opened to check for anti-freeze. The water is flowing from behind the plate that the black Controller Unit is attached to. It cascades pretty good out the door when I turn the water pump on. I suspect that it's coming from the copper in the back of the unit. Luckily, it all flows out the heater door instead of flooding the belly of the trailer.

It seems like I should be able to tear this thing apart and replace whatever's blown... but I don't think that they sell individual parts for the unit outside of say drain plugs, filters, and controller units, etc.

It would be worth pulling down the false wall of the pass through storage to look at the rear of the unit to see if one of the lines or external check valve ruptured. Those are easy fixes if you got lucky.

Regarding the Truma, I'm very happy with it. If you've got it on it's good to almost zero, I forget the extact temp. They have an "electric antifreeze" kit I'm getting ready to install that keeps it safe to about fifteen degrees off 12V, I'm looking forward to that for when driving through cold weather so I don't need to worry about the flame blowing i out.

[Jlawles2]

Phil, unfortunately without knowing what exactly wrong, ordering parts (if available) blindly is useless. I agree with Rob, by the looks of it, aside from the mixing chamber or the heat exchanger, the rest is simple tubing. Cut, couple, solder and continue.

Looking at the pictures, there are a couple of suspect low points that may be easily repaired once the unit is pulled. Again, no inspection, hard to determine. You may be able to use an inspection mirror or bore scope and see if it's something minor before pulling the unit.

[NCW_Wander]

The good news is that since you were able to use the water system without the water heater, nothing else was damaged by the freezing. I think you are going to have to replace the water heater . . . but, this gives you the option of installing a “traditional” tank style water heater which can operate on either gas or electric. I would be giving that dealer a “wide berth”. If you need warranty service work, Grand Design has alternatives for working through independent service providers for when the situation with the selling dealer is no longer viable. Talk to their Customer Service and explain why.

Rob

That's interesting... I'll give Grand Design a call first thing Monday. Thank you!
There are only a handful of dealers nearby. By nearby I mean, anywhere from three to five hours away. I've heard horror stories about each and every one of their service departments. If I could go through my local Forest River dealer (who's service department I know and trust), that would be such a relief!

[NCW_Wander]

Phil, unfortunately without knowing what exactly wrong, ordering parts (if available) blindly is useless. I agree with Rob, by the looks of it, aside from the mixing chamber or the heat exchanger, the rest is simple tubing. Cut, couple, solder and continue.

Looking at the pictures, there are a couple of suspect low points that may be easily repaired once the unit is pulled. Again, no inspection, hard to determine. You may be able to use an inspection mirror or bore scope and see if it's something minor before pulling the unit.

Just to clarify, my intention here wasn't to diagnose. Just looking for opinions on how to handle the situation. But, in the spirit of fueling speculation... or rather, if any of you find yourself in a similar situation.
Attached are two one-lines. One that I layered with some notes and the other is the original drawing that I marked up. After I discovered the leak and figured out how to bypass the water heater at the Nautilus Panel, I grabbed my tools and set to seeing if I could fix it. When I sent water to the unit, it flowed out the front from under the Controller Box. That metal backing for the Controller Box blocks the view of most everything in the back of the unit. There is a notch on the upper-right side of the backing where you can get a peek-a-boo vantage of a copper box and piping that twists around the box. I assume that's the heat exchanger. I could only see the upper half of the box and most of top coil. Nothing else. The first thing I did before running the water anymore, was exactly what Niel recommended, I detached the false-wall and inspected the line-in/line-out connections, as well as the water tank. All of that was in good working order and there was no dampness or appearance of any water damage. Then, I detached the Controller Box to see if I could disassemble the unit enough to see what was going on. Ultimately, I decided against it and just to moved forward with my trip and bypassed the water heater. I'd have to look into repairs later. I can't see where the leak is coming from, but it's a LOT of water.

My guess is that the copper is split or sheared somewhere. I believe that once I remove the unit, I can unscrew and lift the top-half of the casing to expose the guts of the unit (like it is in the attachment). Once I've got it on the work bench, if the damage isn't obvious at that point, I should be able to hook up some water and see what happens. With any luck, a little solder and some copper pipe and I'll be back in business. Before I go that far though, I'm going to give the dealer another chance to do the right thing. I also need to see what, if any, effect on my warranty my work would have.

If I DO end up throwing this unit on the work bench, would it be worthwhile for ya'll to post a bunch of photos and videos of the unit various states of assembly (or disassembly)? it's a relatively new item from Furrion isn't it? finding anything on the web about the Furrion Tankless Water Heater has been a challenge.

Edit: Grammar

[ncitro]

That's too bad it was not something simple on the back. I think I can speak for the rest of the forum and say if you tackle the repair photos would be amazing. It's been out for over a year now, this is at least the second winter I've seen it in units and seen caution about cold weather.

Warranty wise you should be fine modifications do not void anything m except what they affect. So for instance your new water heater would not be covered under your factory warranty, and any plumbing you messed with would not be covered if it caused the warranty issue.

[Jlawles2]

Phil, and investigative surgery you do on the unit will be much appreciated. As Neil said, not much out there on this unit and any information is better than what we currently have. Since I have one, finding any low points that could be an issue is a plus.

This spring I am thinking of adding a small AC or DC heating element to the box to aid in cold weather use (only time it's used in cold is for hunting) to avoid the fill, use, drain nightly.