Wet Bolt Shimming

[Yoda]

TucsonJim Cate&Rob

Jim and Rob - this topic should bring back memories. Jim I ran across your 2018 thread over on the other place along with a few others on this topic. Trying to think ahead here. Rob - did you ever shim your springs in the hangers as you were thinking of doing, and if you did how did it go? Jim did you happen to check the shoulder length on the wet bolts your using?

Why am I asking? I was double checking measurements off all my components, The EZ-Flex and my wet bolts supplied with my components like the X=Factor cross brace.
"
First my hangers measure 2 3/8 fat outside to outside. By fat I may have an additional 1/16 but that could be paint or my eyeballs. Inside is 1 7/8" fat. Again a 1/16, so 1/16 shy of 2 " However at my existing wet bolts the hanger is compressed to 1 3/4 inside, just as yours were Jim. Some do have a gap as posted with my axle pictures. So the stock wet bolts may have been shorter. Ill know when I take them out.

The EZ-Flex. Center bushing location measures just shy (1/16") of 2" for the inside steel bushing, so it will be an exact fit inside the hanger. Casting is 1.75". this means the hanger itself can float to the side on the center steel bushing. I have an email into Dexter to see if this should be shimmed to prevent side to side float. The wet bolt supplied by Mooryde to hold the assembly in place and the cross member plate is a fat 2 3/4" inside bolt face to thread face. IE distance between bolt face on outside of hanger to nut face inside the cross tube. The cross plate face is 3/8" When installed the Hanger should not be compressed much by the bolt leaving space for the bushing to float on the wet bolt.

So to recap 2 3/8" fat hanger OD thickness plus 3/8" cross tube plate gives a fat 2 3/4", so the hanger should not be compressed at all with the Morryde wet bolts supplied with the X-Factor cross member kit This means I have a shy 1/4" play between the springs and the inside face of the hangers now. Springs measure exactly 1.75 wide. I have shims the should work with this, but they are galvanized. I am sure I can find SS locally too. Or use rubber washers to fill this gap.

So I guess what I am asking is should I get some thin SS shims and make the fitment tighter, but not so tight that when torqued properly there is resistance in movement.

Thanks for your thoughts on this.

Keith

[Cate&Rob]

Hi Keith,

I gave up on the shimming plan when I realized that the nut has to reach the shoulder on the bolt, to be properly retained. Shimming the sides of of the spring/bushing to match the inside dimension of parallel hanger sides would be ideal . . . but, this would require a longer bolt. I was not able to find longer bolts, so I went back to the OE design where the hanger is compressed with sides out of parallel to allow the nut to torque against the shoulder of the bolt.

Rob

[TucsonJim]

Keith - I am just living with the outer part of the hanger on an angle. And some play around the springs. It just looks odd to me, but it works.

Jim

[Yoda]

Keith - I am just living with the outer part of the hanger on an angle. And some play around the springs. It just looks odd to me, but it works.

Jim

Cate&Rob
Thanks you two. I will get photos of the new bolt in place when I get there - still putting screws into and cutting cribbing If I measured correctly it should not pull the outer hanger face in. I also measured the stock wet bolt provided my Morryde in thier HD shackle kit. It measures 2 5/16 from inner bolt face to thread boss, so also should prevent the outside hanger from pulling in. Ill bring the spares to the rally if you want to compare.
Keith

[Scott'n'Wendy]

It's not a precision suspension. It needs slop.

[Yoda]

Well we have an answer.

My Dexter manager contact called me this morning. Roger was concerned something was wrong, but once I explained the question he assured me the play was normal and if the wet bolt was the correct size there should be no major bowing of the spring hanger. The 3/16" to the 1/4" play side to side is normal. He also assure me the play in the the EZ-flex was normal too (steel busing being 1 7/8" wide and forging being 1 3/4" wide). We also talked about using a rubber seal or o-ring outside the spring against the hanger to keep dirt out of the wet bolt and bushing. He said proper greasing should keep things clean. I guess you cant grease too often.

Second confirmation came from Morryde that the play was normal and by design. The do not want the wet bolt distorting the hanger against the spring. the 3/16" to 1/4" clearance is normal, There will be some slight compression of the hanger to keep the wet bolt engaged.

E-Trailer has not gotten back to me yet, but they usually answer in a day or so

So how do you determine the wet bolt length. From what I can gather the distance from the back bolt face of the wet bolt to the step (inside end of threads) should be flush to about 1/16" shorter than the OD of the hanger when straight, or in the case of the X-Factor include the additional plate thickness. I confirmed this with Morryde.. From the discussion it appears all hanger dimensions are not created equal. Also she said to be sure the bolt was fully seated before torquing and not to use the nut to pull the bolt home. BTW they have excellent customer service.

Ill update if E-Trailer says anything different

Hope this helps

Keith

[Cate&Rob]

The ideal wet bolt length would the width of the outside of the hanger with hanger legs parallel. Then, shim washers could be placed between the bushing ends and the inside of the hanger and the nut could still torque against the shoulder on the bolt. In most cases the wet bolt is slightly shorter than this, causing the hanger sides to bend in before the nut reaches the shoulder. To say that this is "by design" is a curious description. Parts that fit together this poorly are "by lack of design".

Rob

[Yoda]

The ideal wet bolt length would the width of the outside of the hanger with hanger legs parallel. Then, shim washers could be placed between the bushing ends and the inside of the hanger and the nut could still torque against the shoulder on the bolt. In most cases the wet bolt is slightly shorter than this, causing the hanger sides to bend in before the nut reaches the shoulder. To say that this is "by design" is a curious description. Parts that fit together this poorly are "by lack of design".

Rob

Thanks for the clarification Rob. They say I don't need to shim between the spring eye and the inside of the hanger and to leave it so it can float. In my case the wet bolt I have should only compresses the hanger the 1/16 of an inch based on measurements at the top of the hanger where its full width. Heck in measuring, even at the top of my hangers I have at least 1/16 of an inch difference, but that could be paint/coating build up. Per Morryde the hanger dimensions vary about 1/4" depending on who made them (Lippert and Dexter are slightly different if I remember correctly).

But you are correct it should be an exact fit to the hanger if set parallel. I think I am lucky that mine all appear to be straight except at the spring bolt where it narrows slightly.. I will check when the axles are removed.

What concerns me is when I see pictures with one side really pilled in - like 3/8" or more and wonder why. Is the hanger damaged, much wider the most stock 2" width, too short of a wet bolt. What appear to be critical is that the 9/16" smooth portion extend through both hangers, or the X-Factor backing plate to fully carry the load. the threaded portion should carry no weight. In one video the bow was caused by not having the kneel not seated fully. Now Morryde does carry the wet bolts that are 3/8" longer than stock to fit the X-Factor backing plate, I guess could use them and shim the shoulder to the correct width to prevent hanger compression. Cant see where going longer would hurt. I would just need to get 4 of the longer ones to do that with my install. Is the need not to compress the hanger 1/6" to 1/8" worth that? Thought?. I do have the time to get them ordered though.

Now before I install the X-fator I am going to make sure the inside hanger faces are parallel, I think I can do that befoer hand by measuring and assemble the cross beam to the proper width first. Instructions don't say to do that though. However if I do the top connection (two bolts with clamp strip) first.. Its at the top of the hanger which should not be bent to set the beam width, then torque the wet bolt, that might make sure they are parallel. Thoughts?

Keith

Edit Cate&Rob
DOH!!!!!!! am I the dummy here. All of the spring hanger wet bolts will be the longer ones provided with the X-Factor, They are 2 13/16 long inside face to shoulder.
So springs hangers are a fat 2 3/8"OD plus 3/8" for the X=Factor backing plate gives a fat 2 3/4" total length needed for the bolt face to the shoulder. Wet bolt is an exact fit and there will be no hanger compression. I was looking at the wrong wet bolt

Have a good laugh on me.
Keith

[Cate&Rob]

Hi Keith,

Part of why the springs need to "float" on the bolts is that the hangers may not be perfectly aligned when they are welded to the frame. Add to this that the spring eyes are seldom at a right angle to the spring (see the attached picture from the fixture that I built to measure spring strength . . . that is a free floating pin through a new bushing in a new spring ). This is all an incredible sloppy assembly design that hasn't changed since the 50s . . . 70 some years ago!

I have V Clip reinforcements welded into my hangers, but welded per LCI instructions so that each side of the hanger has some flex. This means that my hanger legs bend in equally from each side. Cross bracing between the hangers forces the inside leg to remain vertical (see the pictures posted by TucsonJim ) so that all the bending has to happen in the outside hanger leg.

It is important that the smooth part of the bolt extends through both hanger arms. If the nut does not torque against the bolt shoulder, the motion of the spring will cause it to loosen. I would be careful about putting a washer under that nut.

Rob

[Yoda]

Hi Keith,

Part of why the springs need to "float" on the bolts is that the hangers may not be perfectly aligned when they are welded to the frame. Add to this that the spring eyes are seldom at a right angle to the spring (see the attached picture from the fixture that I built to measure spring strength . . . that is a free floating pin through a new bushing in a new spring ). This is all an incredible sloppy assembly design that hasn't changed since the 50s . . . 70 some years ago!

I have V Clip reinforcements welded into my hangers, but welded per LCI instructions so that each side of the hanger has some flex. This means that my hanger legs bend in equally from each side. Cross bracing between the hangers forces the inside leg to remain vertical (see the pictures posted by TucsonJim ) so that all the bending has to happen in the outside hanger leg.

It is important that the smooth part of the bolt extends through both hanger arms. If the nut does not torque against the bolt shoulder, the motion of the spring will cause it to loosen. I would be careful about putting a washer under that nut.

Rob

LOL we posted at the same time See my edit above. All is good, and I now thanks to you why not to shim the spring eyes. I think Jim's solution is to get the longer wet bolts https://www.etrailer.com/Accessories...de/MR52HR.html He may need to shim the very outside so when the nut is on the shoulder, it contacts the web hanger to prevent the knurl from walking out., The nut would still torque against the shoulder.

This is probably clear as mud though.
Thanks again for your valuable input

Keith

[TucsonJim]

Yoda

With my X-factor braces, you can see the inner hanger is perpendicular to the frame. But if you look closely at the photo, the splines are well seated in the outer hanger, even though the hanger had to bend quite a ways to make contact.

But for added safety, I also use blue Loctite on the crush nuts to prevent them from coming off.

Jim

[Yoda]

Yoda

With my X-factor braces, you can see the inner hanger is perpendicular to the frame. But if you look closely at the photo, the splines are well seated in the outer hanger, even though the hanger had to bend quite a ways to make contact.

But for added safety, I also use blue Loctite on the crush nuts to prevent them from coming off.

Jim

I like the LocTite idea - thanks.I have some on hand.

Do you happen to have your hanger dimension? I don't quite understand why the outside pulled in as much as it did. looks like a good 1/4". Now you have me wondering on my measurements. It must be an optical illusion that the rear hanger face looks slightly thicker than the outboard face. probably the sun/shadow. It is pulled tight to the X-Factor brace so it hast to be perpendicular.

Could Morryde have changed bolt dimensions? I'll check the rest of what I have. I need to mark the grease outlet hole anyway. Thanks for the picture. I guess I will know when I get mine bolted up.

Just a thought - while there still in the box I am going to check the alignment of Morrydes welding of the backing plate to the cross tube.

Keith

[Country Campers]

I would guess that the X-Factor cross brace is pulling the inner side of both hangers that it is connected to towards each other and parallel to the end of the X-Factor brace. This will cause the outer flange of the hanger to pull inwards when the wet bolt is tightened. I was going to add the X-Factor but now I am not so sure.

Brian

[TucsonJim]

Just a note. I think some of the "angles" we're seeing in my photo are because of the camera angle. If you look at the inner hanger, it looks like it's bent inward. But in reality, it's vertical. And the camera perspective is making the outer hanger look more bent than it is.

Even so, the brace won't move, so the outer hanger needs to move to seat the bolt to the shoulder. I prefer this bend to allowing the hangers to both bend and flex.

Jim

[Lonestar]

Yoda

With my X-factor braces, you can see the inner hanger is perpendicular to the frame. But if you look closely at the photo, the splines are well seated in the outer hanger, even though the hanger had to bend quite a ways to make contact.

But for added safety, I also use blue Loctite on the crush nuts to prevent them from coming off.

Jim

I can't tell by your picture but are the arms of your spring hangers the same width at the top as the bottom (when visualizing from front to back of trailer, not the space between the hangers)? They apparently changed them on my 2020 model Reflection where the hanger arm is wider at the top than the bottom. This was to provide more welding surface area when attaching the hanger to the frame.

Reason I ask is because of the X-Factor brace. I installed a brace on my center hangers which are the same width top and bottom. Because of the flange on the end of the X-Factor, I'm not sure they would install on my current front and rear spring hangers.

Edit: I found a pic on Yoda post. This is the hanger I have.