What is 2nd breaker box for

[2by4]

I happen to have a TS30 switch on the shelf and I dug into the manual and my papers from GoPower. Also this old thread https://gdrvowners.com/forum/solar/4...power-be-wrong It may be worth a call to GoPower, but from what I am seeing why cant you piggy back the inverter on top of the generator input feeds. Then the entire trailer is tied to the inverter when in use. You would never run both at the same time wold you? And if concerned install a simple solid state 120V switch on the inverter hot line that would isolate the inverter if generator power is present? Not sure how to do that though.

I called GoPower, not much could help as it was more about the product itself, not an issue with 'how to do this'.

For "You would never run both at the same time wold you?"
That would work well if I were by myself - but with wife and kids; you never know who will decide - "I am too hot; let me start generator"; it has to be a bulletproof solution. I really like the idea of entire trailer to be available.

"install a simple solid state 120V switch on the inverter hot line"
I'm at a loss there; not sure what kind. I guess will spend rest of day on google.

Of course you could go withe a Victron multiplus and solve many of the issues Just saying ...... That's how I ended up with the transfer switch on the shelf. Howard is to thank for that. He explained the benefits and how it solved my problem.

How would this simplify? I would need to go with at least 3000VA.

[Jlawles2]

Simplifies the situation because the Multiplus is the automatic selector switch. It will invert when no shore power (or generator) is present and kick off into battery charge mode when external power is present. This also means the whip chord is still used for both pedestal or generator power.

[acoleman43]

Where would inverter be hooked up to, per this type of setup as now some go main, and some directly to sub-panel:

Shore/Generator->TS30->Main Panel Main->Main Panel Inverter->Sub-panel Main->Sub-panel Kit/Bed/TV
Shore/Generator->TS30->Sub-panel Microwave

Would it not require to move the Inverter directly to sub-panel? Also, where would the ATS would go? Per https://www.magnum-dimensions.com/si...W-TS15-Web.pdf it is only 15A transfer switch, would it not limit entire RV to 15A?



BRAIN STORMING

Shore/Generator->TS30->CSW TS-15 ATS with Inverter>Main Panel <-I don't believe this would pass through 30A from Shore/Generator

Shore/Generator->TS30#1->TS30#2/Inverter->Main panel - this would only give max 15A, but I can utilize Mini-EMS (Energy Management System) to set the max to 15A service.

The idea is - (to be honest I may be completely out of my mind with this):

• If 30A Shore/Generator provides power to TS30#1, power is sent to second ATS TS30#2 to Shore input line and Inverter hooked-up to Generator on the TS30#2
  • If Shore/Generator is ON, it would pass trough 30A to main panel
  • If Shore/Generator is OFF, and Inverter is ON it would pass 15A to main panel. Inverter would power entire RV; but I can utilize Mini-EMS (Energy Management System) to set the max to 15A service and let it manage power. I would also ensure all my non-essential appliances are off; e.g. no AC is running, fridge is on Propane

For AC electricity side:
**inverter WITHOUT built in ATS:
Shore/Generator -> TS 30-> main breaker in main distribution panel.
Then, Inverter breaker in main distribution panel-> CSW TS-15 ATS (AC Input 2)
Then, CSW TS-15 ATS (AC Output) -> main breaker in subpanel.
Then inverter -> CSW TS-15 ATS (AC Input 1)

**Inverter WITH built in ATS:
Shore/generator -> TS-30 -> Main breaker in main distribution panel.
Then, inverter breaker in main distribution panel -> AC Input of inverter
Then AC Output of inverter -> main breaker in subpanel

For DC side:
An additional +/- cable from batteries to inverter

**You will also need to attach ground wire to any inverter you install

Doing this will allow the inverter to power anything attached to the subpanel. It will also allow shore power to power the subpanel when shore power is available (and no inverter is needed).

After this you will want to do a couple additional things to get the microwave and bed TV connected to inverter:

-Bed TV: disconnect existing romex wiring from TV outlet. Tie the disconnected romex together to keep the circuit complete. Then, add an additional wire from the TV Outlet to a new 15A breaker in the subpanel.
-Microwave: Take the breaker and romex wiring from the MICROWAVE breaker in the main distribution panel. Install the breaker and romex wire in the subpanel.

**With the inverter WITHOUT ATS (assuming you are using the CSW TS-15), this setup will give you up to 15A of inverted power to everything connected to the subpanel (The outlets, bed TV and microwave) when inverter is turned on.

**With an inverter WITH built-in ATS, you will have to look up the inverter specs to determine max amp passthrough. A 2000W inverter will typically have 20A passthrough. If this is the case, you would want to change the main breaker in the subpanel to a 20A breaker to match the capacity of the inverter. This will also allow you to run more devices at the same time while using the inverter.

Currently I have Magnum CSW1012W inverter (with remote start), a CSW TS-15 ATS, and a Magnum CSW2012-HX inverter with remote start that are not in use. If you have any questions about those, I can probably answer them.




Regarding the Multiplus Jlawles2 brought up (and answered), if using the multiplus as an inverter, this is how I would wire your system:

AC electricity:
Shore/Generator -> TS30 -> Multiplus AC INPUT
Multiplus AC OUTPUT -> main breaker in main distribution panel.

DC Electricity:
Run cable from battery(S) +/- to Multiplus

**ground wire to Multiplus

** Disable converter/charger in main distribution panel

The simplicity of this is that you won't have to run any additional wires to bed TC outlet, you won't have to move microwave breaker to the subpanel. Entire trailer will be run by the inverter when no shore power is detected.

Also with the multiplus, there are additional cool features like Power Assist. This is a super cool feature. Your trailer is a 30A trailer. If you are plugged into shore power or have the generator running, so you have 30A of power available...but you are running the AC, microwave, hair dryer, electric kettle all at the same time you will exceed the available power (30A)......however, if you have the Multiplus connected to your system, The Multiplus swill allow the 30A from shore/Generator AND start puling additional power from the batteries (inverted power) to assist the power need. In other words if you need 40A of power, it will allow the 30A from shore/Generator and add an additional 10A from the batteries to get you the 40A you're pulling.

The multiplus also automatically charges your batteries when connected to shore/Generator power. The Multiplus is an Inverter/Charger.

Hope that didn't add to the confusion. A 3000W inverter (like the Multiplus) will certainly simplify what you're trying to do and give you a little more flexibility with powering your trailer.

[2by4]

acoleman43 your examples are very convincing to go with Victron Multiplus and is a clear winner in all of these scenarios; even when it is at least double the price.

Now; I have to understand which Victron Multiplus 3000VA to chose between

Victron Multiplus 12/3000/120 https://www.currentconnected.com/product/mp3k120/ 362x258x218 mm (14.3x10.2x8.6 inch) 19kg 40 lbs

and

Victron Multiplus II 12/3000/120-50 https://www.victronenergy.com/upload...2x120V-EN-.pdf 578 x 275 x 148 mm (23 x 11 x 6 inch) 22 kg (48 lb)

both units are not only super heavy, but they are also huge; finding a space in RV will be very challenging.

Any recommendations one over the other for 12v 3000VA 30A Multiplus vs Multiplus II; searching around I only find differences for powering back to grid which is not applicable in RV. Multiplus II uses less power at zero load but is $100 more expensive.

[acoleman43]

acoleman43 your examples are very convincing to go with Victron Multiplus and is a clear winner in all of these scenarios; even when it is at least double the price.

Now; I have to understand which Victron Multiplus 3000VA to chose between

Victron Multiplus 12/3000/120 https://www.currentconnected.com/product/mp3k120/ 362x258x218 mm (14.3x10.2x8.6 inch) 19kg 40 lbs

and

Victron Multiplus II 12/3000/120-50 https://www.victronenergy.com/upload...2x120V-EN-.pdf 578 x 275 x 148 mm (23 x 11 x 6 inch) 22 kg (48 lb)

both units are not only super heavy, but they are also huge; finding a space in RV will be very challenging.

Any recommendations one over the other for 12v 3000VA 30A Multiplus vs Multiplus II; searching around I only find differences for powering back to grid which is not applicable in RV. Multiplus II uses less power at zero load but is $100 more expensive.

There are other 3000W inverters that are much cheaper, but, in my opinion, the quality and features of the Multiplus is worth the additional expense. So, if you're on a tight budget, you may want to look at cheaper inverters.

As far as the Multiplus vs Multiplus II, here is a link that explains the main differences: https://community.victronenergy.com/...tiplus-ii.html

I don't think you'll need the additional features of the Multiplus II. I think either will work for you. I have the Multiplus and it works great for me.

**Note, if you disable the charger/converter in the main distribution panel (I recommend you do disable if installing a Multiplus), ALL DC power will always be provided by the batteries. There will be no converter to convert AC to DC for the DC system of your trailer.

This shouldn't be an issue as the DC loads are typically quite small, the solar panels will charge your batteries and the Multiplus will charge your batteries if you are connected to shore power or run the generator (this happens automatically with the Multiplus, no need to flip switches or mess with settings). The large energy drains for batteries are the high wattage AC deviecs (microwave, air conditioner, electric kettle, hair dryer, water heater.....) which you can easily monitor and not use.

Also, if you use the Multiplus, and wire as outlined above, you will always need the Multiplus powered on or no AC power will make it to your main distribution panel. You can turn it off when your trailer is in storage.

With my system (Multiplus, Cerbo GX, Touch GX, etc..) the zero load energy consumption is about 24W. I can switch modes to save some energy, but my battery bank is sufficient to handle 24W without issue.

Keep in mind the TS-30 ATS has a 30 second generator delay built in. That means that if the TS-30 senses power from the generator, it will not switch AC loads to the generator for 30 seconds (they say 30 seconds but I think it's closer to 60 seconds). This allows the generator to warm up a bit before loads are applied. So if you are expecting the generator to charge your batteries right away, that won't happen....but will happen in 30 seconds (or more). You probably won't even notice this unless you go further down the Victron rabbit hole and start messing with the GX devices.....it's an expensive hole.

A lot of people on this forum have Victron equipment and can answer almost any question you have about Victron products.

[2by4]

Spent some time customizing wiring diagram for Multiplus II - (have to go with MPII due to size that will fit into space; MP1 is too thick..)

Need an advice on circled areas. I already have 2/0 AWG WindyNation welding wire that I could use if possible instead of buying 4/0

• TS-30 -> MPII 10-13'
• MPII -> Breaker panel 10-13'
• MPII->SmartShunt 1'-2'
• SmartShunt->BMS 1'-2'
• MPPT->Fuse/Busbar 1'-2'
• BMS->Battery - 1'

[acoleman43]

Spent some time customizing wiring diagram for Multiplus II - (have to go with MPII due to size that will fit into space; MP1 is too thick..)

Need an advice on circled areas. I already have 2/0 AWG WindyNation welding wire that I could use if possible instead of buying 4/0

• TS-30 -> MPII 10-13'
• MPII -> Breaker panel 10-13'
• MPII->SmartShunt 1'-2'
• SmartShunt->BMS 1'-2'
• MPPT->Fuse/Busbar 1'-2'
• BMS->Battery - 1'

• Looking at your Solar panels/solar charge controller. If you wire all panels in parallel, you will need a 6 awg wire from panels to solar charge controller. If you wire in series/parallel, 10 awg is fine. It does look like worst case you may get about 56amps thought the solar charge conttroller. I'd consider stepping up to the 150/60.
• Cable from shunt/400A T-Fuse to multiplus: Victron does recommend (2) 2/0 cables. Windy Nation 2/0 cables are rated up to 325A each for a total of 750A. A single 4/0 cable is rated up to 4540A
• Cables from battery to shunt/400A T fuse: A single 4/0 or double 2/0 will be sufficient
• From Multiplus to main distribution panel: Look at your max amp rating of your panel. Up to 70A a 4 awg cable will work. If it's over 70A and up to 100A a 2 awg cable will work.

[Country Campers]

Victron actually recommends double 2/0 for the Multiplus 2 3000w version, 2 red, 2 black, from the battery power source. I, along with others, have used 4/0 with no issues, at least for me.

Brian

[2by4]

• Looking at your Solar panels/solar charge controller. If you wire all panels in parallel, you will need a 6 awg wire from panels to solar charge controller. If you wire in series/parallel, 10 awg is fine. It does look like worst case you may get about 56amps thought the solar charge conttroller. I'd consider stepping up to the 150/60.

I actually thought about it - there is absolutely no chance that these panels will produce 100% power; after all I am not planning to add any incline or adjustable angle brackets on the roof. We are "weekend warriors" if batteries discharge to 60% and charge to 90% on next day, and then then go to e.g. 50 and get back to 80% that's is more than enough energy for the 2-3 day weekends. Plus 150|60 is almost double the price of 100|50

[*]Cable from shunt/400A T-Fuse to multiplus: Victron does recommend (2) 2/0 cables. Windy Nation 2/0 cables are rated up to 325A each for a total of 750A. A single 4/0 cable is rated up to 4540A[/LIST]

Thanks!

[*]Cables from battery to shunt/400A T fuse: A single 4/0 or double 2/0 will be sufficient[/LIST]

BMS is 120A and at 130A it will cut off; wouldn't a single 2/0 Battery->BMS and BMS->Shunt cable be sufficient? Even if BMS fails, per LF304 304Ah 3.2V LiFePO4 Mode: E304HJ spec sheet:

• Max Charge/Discharge Current
  • Continuous Charge/Discharge Current 250A
  • Pulse Charge/Discharge Ccurrent（30s）2C/2C

This would still be limited at max 250A per each battery.

[*]From Multiplus to main distribution panel: Look at your max amp rating of your panel. Up to 70A a 4 awg cable will work. If it's over 70A and up to 100A a 2 awg cable will work.[/LIST]

Panel is WFCO WF-8955PEC-GE with max output current 55A; therefore I could use 4 and 2 AWG. What type of wire is recommended in RV for 120V; I see Grand Design used romex, but I also read that romex is not recommended. What type or link to product would be better to use in RV?

[acoleman43]

BMS is 120A and at 130A it will cut off; wouldn't a single 2/0 Battery->BMS and BMS->Shunt cable be sufficient? Even if BMS fails, per LF304 304Ah 3.2V LiFePO4 Mode: E304HJ spec sheet:

• Max Charge/Discharge Current
  • Continuous Charge/Discharge Current 250A
  • Pulse Charge/Discharge Ccurrent（30s）2C/2C

This would still be limited at max 250A per each battery.

In that case a 2/0 would work great.

Panel is WFCO WF-8955PEC-GE with max output current 55A; therefore I could use 4 and 2 AWG. What type of wire is recommended in RV for 120V; I see Grand Design used romex, but I also read that romex is not recommended. What type or link to product would be better to use in RV?

For DC wiring from Multiplus to distribution panel I would go with 4 awg.
For AC I would look at something different than romex. I used romex and it wasn't the easiest to use in my installation - something like the Southwire flexible SOOW. I would go with 12/2 or 10/2. The larger the wire, the less voltage loss and heat....

[Yoda]

Spent some time customizing wiring diagram for Multiplus II - (have to go with MPII due to size that will fit into space; MP1 is too thick..)

Need an advice on circled areas. I already have 2/0 AWG WindyNation welding wire that I could use if possible instead of buying 4/0

• TS-30 -&gt; MPII 10-13'
• MPII -&gt; Breaker panel 10-13'
• MPII-&gt;SmartShunt 1'-2'
• SmartShunt-&gt;BMS 1'-2'
• MPPT-&gt;Fuse/Busbar 1'-2'
• BMS-&gt;Battery - 1'

The multiplus 2 is for a 50A two leg service (2 hot, neutral, ground). Can it be wired for just 30A one side (one hot, neutral, ground)? Having an unused open hot leg? if so it only has 3 wires in/ out for a 30A service, unless your upgrading to a 50A. You also don't show a connection from the batterys to the trailer buss bar powering the 12v side - should have a disconnect switch on that line too, 6 wag should work

Now what is the rated discharge capacity of your batterys. Most I have seen are only 100A continuous (with a few seconds surge) the Multiplus in inverter mode pulls between 250 and 300 amps when fully used, more on surge. Depending on your batterys you may need a 3rd to not exceed the discharge rating.

I have the Victron Multiplus 12/3000/120 and used 4/0 cabling, except for the batterys to my power in bar which I used 2/0.

Folks double check my thought here.

Keith

[howson]

2by4

What is the USB Adapter for in the diagram?

What I don't see is a Cerbo GX. Adding the "brains" (Cerbo GX) is highly recommended. If the budget just won't allow that stretch, ncitro loaded the Venus operating system on a separate unit (Pi?) and has very similar functionality. At minimum consider what Neil did (but the Cerbo is the easily way to go, and opens up all kinds of possibilities for future expansion).

And no, I don't have stock in Victron. Just a huge, unashamed Victron fanboy.

Howard

P.S. Mark, acoleman43 , has done a fantastic job with his recommendations in this thread. I've kept out of the conversation up to this point since all I'd be doing is echoing what he wrote.

[ncitro]

2by4 Howard is right, I actually have both. My RV system uses the raspberry pi running the Victron Venus OS, and my 48v home backup uses a Cerbo. Cerbo is definitely the easier way to go, but the pi was not bad if you're familiar with the platform. I agree though one or the other is a huge improvement to usability.

Hers a link to my write up on the pi install.

https://gdrvowners.com/forum/solar/2...ctron-venus-os

[Yoda]

2by4

What is the USB Adapter for in the diagram?

What I don't see is a Cerbo GX. Adding the "brains" (Cerbo GX) is highly recommended. If the budget just won't allow that stretch, ncitro loaded the Venus operating system on a separate unit (Pi?) and has very similar functionality. At minimum consider what Neil did (but the Cerbo is the easily way to go, and opens up all kinds of possibilities for future expansion).

And no, I don't have stock in Victron. Just a huge, unashamed Victron fanboy.

Howard

P.S. Mark, acoleman43 , has done a fantastic job with his recommendations in this thread. I've kept out of the conversation up to this point since all I'd be doing is echoing what he wrote.

Howard - I think that is the MK3-USB adapter needed to program the multiplus form a laptop. I agree on the Cerbo being needed and a Touch 50 or the new Touch 70 screen somewhere.

Keith

[howson]

Howard - I think that is the MK3-USB adapter needed to program the multiplus form a laptop. I agree on the Cerbo being needed and a Touch 50 or the new Touch 70 screen somewhere.

Keith

That would make sense! Didn't "click" that it was the MK3.