Suspension bolts

[Country Campers]

Scott'n'Wendy

I would go with nylon if you are going with "dry" bolts, just from a machinist point of view.

Brian

[Scott'n'Wendy]

What I think I'll do is tear down in the spring early as possible and check the condition of the bolts carefully. If any are slightly bent or show any cracks I can discern, I'll go solid bolts with nylon or whatever composite may be available. If they look fine, I'll continue with the wet bolts. You may be right Country Campers that it really only affects the heavier Solitudes and Momentums?

[ajg617]

What I think I'll do is tear down in the spring early as possible and check the condition of the bolts carefully. If any are slightly bent or show any cracks I can discern, I'll go solid bolts with nylon or whatever composite may be available. If they look fine, I'll continue with the wet bolts. You may be right Country Campers that it really only affects the heavier Solitudes and Momentums?

I've found a set of neverfails with bolts. Pretty inexpensive insurance even though it's a discontinued product. It's for a triple axle but I'm thinking the bolt and bushing size should be the same.

[Cate&Rob]

So which one do you think is better? 500 miles on the bronze and already worn excessively...I've heard of worse.....so composite may be better? How long did it take the never fail composite to fail? Bronze obviously is a quick failure..so....I have a choice of nylon, bronze, never fail (If they can still be found).....which would you pick with a solid bolt?
Take nylon over bronze? Never fail if you can find a set?

I pulled the Never Fail bushings well before they failed because of the tight fit to the (dry) bolts after compressing them into the spring eyes. I went to greased bronze bushings . . . and eventually to the greased steel bushings that I am running now. The Never Fail material seems softer than the white plastic bushings . . . which allows it to be compressed enough to get into the spring eyes, although I have read that others ended up destroying these trying to get them into the springs.

Nylon? (white plastic) seems like the best choice for a dry installation . . . but in most cases, these are destroyed on the trip from the manufacturer to the dealer. How to find a better composite material ??

Rob

[Yoda]

What I think I'll do is tear down in the spring early as possible and check the condition of the bolts carefully. If any are slightly bent or show any cracks I can discern, I'll go solid bolts with nylon or whatever composite may be available. If they look fine, I'll continue with the wet bolts. You may be right Country Campers that it really only affects the heavier Solitudes and Momentums?

Have you considered Bronze with anti -seize. Would be tougher than the nylon, but better than plastic. Just thinking. I am going to run next year and then check my new installation. Of course I will grease everything well in the spring.

Keith

[Scott'n'Wendy]

Have you considered Bronze with anti -seize.

Keith

I will now. Thks.

[Scott'n'Wendy]

I pulled the Never Fail bushings well before they failed because of the tight fit to the (dry) bolts after compressing them into the spring eyes. I went to greased bronze bushings . . . and eventually to the greased steel bushings that I am running now. The Never Fail material seems softer than the white plastic bushings . . . which allows it to be compressed enough to get into the spring eyes, although I have read that others ended up destroying these trying to get them into the springs.

Nylon? (white plastic) seems like the best choice for a dry installation . . . but in most cases, these are destroyed on the trip from the manufacturer to the dealer. How to find a better composite material ??

Rob

So, what you are saying is for an "off the shelf" purchase, there is no good, reliable choice. Just stuff that is engineered to hopefully make it a year...lol
Will be looking forward to your steel bushing inspection whenever that may be.

[ajg617]

On one forum or another, I had read one suggestion that the rear wet bolts seem to fail more frequently then the fronts especially on Momentums with no toys. So as I look at the weight/wheel on our coach, the RR carries the lightest load. My off-door side is 510lbs heavier from the factory build sheet and that is before putting anything in the fridge or pantry. Add a factory generator (Left front) and washer/dryer (Right Front), and that probably makes the RR even more lightly loaded. Given that our RR wet bolt was missing, I'll conclude that it was the first to fail and the LR break was a result of the RR spring hanging free. I would guess that there is a lot more up and down movement on the RR than any other wheel and the forces on that bushing/bolt are magnified to make it the first to fail. Agree/disagree? So would any suspension mod make up for that?
John

[Yoda]

On one forum or another, I had read one suggestion that the rear wet bolts seem to fail more frequently then the fronts especially on Momentums with no toys. So as I look at the weight/wheel on our coach, the RR carries the lightest load. My off-door side is 510lbs heavier from the factory build sheet and that is before putting anything in the fridge or pantry. Add a factory generator (Left front) and washer/dryer (Right Front), and that probably makes the RR even more lightly loaded. Given that our RR wet bolt was missing, I'll conclude that it was the first to fail and the LR break was a result of the RR spring hanging free. I would guess that there is a lot more up and down movement on the RR than any other wheel and the forces on that bushing/bolt are magnified to make it the first to fail. Agree/disagree? So would any suspension mod make up for that?
John

Good point - to add further the rear hangers are usually the one that fail. I am sure it has to do with turning movement and the side stress (shear) pit on the bolt. Think of it this way - as the rear tire slides sideways it puts a huge load on the spring (twist as axle is under the spring) which puts the wet bolt into shear at the hanger. Also as it is a twist shear is occurring at two points in opposite directions at each side of the hanger where the bolt pass through - no wonder they break at the cross hole. or pop off the bolt .

Cate&Rob Rob - any chance you could make a side business off of your steel bushings? BTW can you share the dimensions.. Normal bronze are 0.70" OD x 0.58" ID or 9/16 Inch ID x 11/16 Inch OD From you discussion I think you made yours a little tighter fit. Just wondering if stock steel or stainless steel tubing can be found with similar dimensions?

Keith

[Scott'n'Wendy]

On one forum or another, I had read one suggestion that the rear wet bolts seem to fail more frequently then the fronts especially on Momentums with no toys. So as I look at the weight/wheel on our coach, the RR carries the lightest load. My off-door side is 510lbs heavier from the factory build sheet and that is before putting anything in the fridge or pantry. Add a factory generator (Left front) and washer/dryer (Right Front), and that probably makes the RR even more lightly loaded. Given that our RR wet bolt was missing, I'll conclude that it was the first to fail and the LR break was a result of the RR spring hanging free. I would guess that there is a lot more up and down movement on the RR than any other wheel and the forces on that bushing/bolt are magnified to make it the first to fail. Agree/disagree? So would any suspension mod make up for that?
John

Hard braking makes life rough for the rear hanger as well. It takes the most abuse from panic stops.

[ajg617]

Good point - to add further the rear hangers are usually the one that fail. I am sure it has to do with turning movement and the side stress (shear) pit on the bolt. Think of it this way - as the rear tire slides sideways it puts a huge load on the spring (twist as axle is under the spring) which puts the wet bolt into shear at the hanger. Also as it is a twist shear is occurring at two points in opposite directions at each side of the hanger where the bolt pass through - no wonder they break at the cross hole. or pop off the bolt .

Cate&Rob Rob - any chance you could make a side business off of your steel bushings? BTW can you share the dimensions.. Normal bronze are 0.70" OD x 0.58" ID or 9/16 Inch ID x 11/16 Inch OD From you discussion I think you made yours a little tighter fit. Just wondering if stock steel or stainless steel tubing can be found with similar dimensions?

Keith

On one forum or another, I had read one suggestion that the rear wet bolts seem to fail more frequently then the fronts especially on Momentums with no toys. So as I look at the weight/wheel on our coach, the RR carries the lightest load. My off-door side is 510lbs heavier from the factory build sheet and that is before putting anything in the fridge or pantry. Add a factory generator (Left front) and washer/dryer (Right Front), and that probably makes the RR even more lightly loaded. Given that our RR wet bolt was missing, I'll conclude that it was the first to fail and the LR break was a result of the RR spring hanging free. I would guess that there is a lot more up and down movement on the RR than any other wheel and the forces on that bushing/bolt are magnified to make it the first to fail. Agree/disagree? So would any suspension mod make up for that? And add a heavier suspension (more weight to throw around), H rated tires at recommended 125PSI capacity, no shock absorption and I think that poor wheel and anything connected to it took a beating.

On the 310, there is simply no place to add weight to the rear (unless on the hitch), and specifically on the Right Rear. The only way I can add weight behind the wheels is to fill the fresh water tank. The refrig is located mostly over the left front wheel - as is the pantry. However, I'd guess the equalizer shifts some of that to the left rear.

[Yoda]

So would any suspension mod make up for that? And add a heavier suspension (more weight to throw around), H rated tires at recommended 125PSI capacity, no shock absorption and I think that poor wheel and anything connected to it took a beating.

Two things come to mind and nothing is perfect. First is the X-Factor cross bracing to keep the hanger in place. This wont cancel the spring twist, but will help. Second is the Sumo springs. They dampen the hard impacts, resulting in less stress in the wet bolts.

Again my 02 on this
Keith

[Cate&Rob]

With reference to why it is usually the rear hangers that fatigue and break . . . the following is copied from an earlier thread on this forum.

Video of Hanger Flex and Braking Reaction . . .

For those who may not have seen the video that shows much of what we are talking about in this thread, see https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Bp5iRVPwYZg
This Youtube video was created by LCI, marketing their aftermarket add-on Equaflex and Correct Track components . . . but, it illustrates a lot more.

In the foreground at the start of the video watch the side-to-side flex of the hanger as they move down a normal road.
At about 2:28, watch the forward axle (to the right in the picture) lift to where the wheel locks up while the rear wheel is still rolling.

Rob

[Cate&Rob]

Cate&Rob Rob - any chance you could make a side business off of your steel bushings? BTW can you share the dimensions.. Normal bronze are 0.70" OD x 0.58" ID or 9/16 Inch ID x 11/16 Inch OD From you discussion I think you made yours a little tighter fit. Just wondering if stock steel or stainless steel tubing can be found with similar dimensions?

Keith

Hi Keith,

I scrounged through the off-cuts bin at my local metal supplier until I found a piece of mild steel tubing that had an ID slightly smaller and an OD slightly larger than what I was looking for. I am surprised that I was not able to source steel bushings . . . and I am not likely to go into the business with my little lathe LOL !

The spring eyes average 0.685" ID but they are oval with an open gap where the spring wraps back to itself.
The bronze bushings average 0.698" OD with a 0.575" ID. The bolts average about 0.560" diameter.
Thus, the bronze bushing is actually compressed (and deformed) as it is inserted into the spring eye.

The steel bushing that I made are an unknown alloy mild steel tubing. Machined to match the bronze 0.698" OD and they would not go into the spring eyes without a lot of force. (They would not deform as easily as the bronze). I had to turn them down 8 thou further to 0.690" to get a similar feel insertion pressure, using my hydraulic press.

Rob

[ajg617]

With reference to why it is usually the rear hangers that fatigue and break . . . the following is copied from an earlier thread on this forum.

Video of Hanger Flex and Braking Reaction . . .

For those who may not have seen the video that shows much of what we are talking about in this thread, see https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Bp5iRVPwYZg
This Youtube video was created by LCI, marketing their aftermarket add-on Equaflex and Correct Track components . . . but, it illustrates a lot more.

In the foreground at the start of the video watch the side-to-side flex of the hanger as they move down a normal road.
At about 2:28, watch the forward axle (to the right in the picture) lift to where the wheel locks up while the rear wheel is still rolling.

Rob

Rob,
That's a scary film to watch.
John